Any hopes of playing this with flamenco/fingerstyle techniques? (For Sephora

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Any hopes of playing this with flamenco/fingerstyle techniques? (For Sephora - Rosenberg Trio)

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soclydeza85

Posts: 60
Joined: Feb. 27 2017

Any hopes of playing this with flame...

I've always loved this song and style in general. Now that my right-hand technique is getting better (I'm a long-time player but new to flamenco techniques), I've been venturing into learning this song using general flamenco/fingerstyle techniques. I can play the main head but haven't ventured into the solo part yet; I'd love to be able to play this song using fingers-only (he uses a pick)

The main parts in question are the runs like he does at 2:54 and the general arpeggio/sting-skipping moves he does throughout.

Do you think it is possible (or rather, likely) to play like this one day using picado and other flamenco/fingerstyle techniques? Or should I just admit defeat and go back to using a pick?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2017 3:59:15

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Any hopes of playing this with f... (in reply to soclydeza85)

I think picado is going to be challenging. You can always do "fake" picado using either up-down strokes of your index finger (like with a pick), or p-i technique (p down, i up, p down, i up, repeat fast).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2017 4:49:14

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: Any hopes of playing this with f... (in reply to soclydeza85)

It is possible. I count it at about 170-172 bpm, and the fastest runs are 4 per click, so basically 16ths at 172bpm picado. Most of these are super short - maybe 6-8 notes; then there are a couple longer ones - 20-25 notes each, I think. The rest of the piece I don't think is any problem.

It is a challenge, but it is something you can achieve; 4x172 bpm is not impossible, and is only medium hard for the shorter runs. But you have to be patient building up the technique.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2017 5:03:28

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Any hopes of playing this with f... (in reply to soclydeza85)

I also think it is possible, a pro flamenco player would not have a problem with that.
But I guess, it takes as long training as it would take you to learn it with a pick.
Gipsy Jazz is played with a hard pick, a turtle shell pick. That feels more easy, direct, than a soft pick

Todd is the guy who can answer you question I think. He is a top notch pro player and knows a lot too about playing with a pick.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2017 7:33:14

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Any hopes of playing this with f... (in reply to soclydeza85)

I know the bass player aspired to be a flamenco guitarist once but found it so difficult he decided to stick to his roods after all (obviously this doesn't mean we won't have equal trouble trying to play their music but it can never hurt to try :-). I can second turtle shells are used as a plectrum, or at least the group Basily did for a while so it seems to be a tradition.

If anyone owns a recording of their Radio (Rijnmond ?) concert (broadcasted life about 20-25 years ago) i would love to have it, i heard it at the time but was not able to record it which is a shame since i don't think i ever heart them play that awesome before and since.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2017 8:46:28

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Any hopes of playing this with f... (in reply to soclydeza85)

quote:

ORIGINAL: soclydeza85

I've always loved this song and style in general. Now that my right-hand technique is getting better (I'm a long-time player but new to flamenco techniques), I've been venturing into learning this song using general flamenco/fingerstyle techniques. I can play the main head but haven't ventured into the solo part yet; I'd love to be able to play this song using fingers-only (he uses a pick)

The main parts in question are the runs like he does at 2:54 and the general arpeggio/sting-skipping moves he does throughout.

Do you think it is possible (or rather, likely) to play like this one day using picado and other flamenco/fingerstyle techniques? Or should I just admit defeat and go back to using a pick?

Are you actually able to play it with a pick? I mean, what are you trying to accomplish? These are improvisations you want to do, that is the main thing and requires a certain music discipline, different from flamenco. It takes many years to develop fluidity with a certain technique and the only way is to focus on a particular discipline. You seem to be lost in the world of "what style am I going to play...". You need to begin to focus on the right things at this point.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2017 10:49:41

Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Any hopes of playing this with f... (in reply to soclydeza85)

Not to discourage you but you'd need an excellent picado to play those runs at tempo. Since you are just starting with flamenco technique, you are looking at years of work, and depending on your age, ability, and available time, it might not happen ever. There are professional flamenco guitarists who couldn't play those runs. And of course there are plenty who could.

IMO, if you really have to play that tune, play it with a pick. You won't get a prize for doing it with picado.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2017 16:30:06

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Any hopes of playing this with f... (in reply to soclydeza85)

I think this song could be covered as a rumba, but depending on your physiology and level of technique you may or may not ever be able to play the really fast parts.

The question is do you love that music enough to want to play it without the flashy parts? You could just improvise around on the melody I mean why not?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2017 21:08:14

Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Any hopes of playing this with f... (in reply to mark74)

This is interesting-I've seen a lot of people play Entre dos Aguas who had zero chance of doing the fast parts. I've always thought if I can't cut the BEST parts of the tune, why would I play it? I realize that means I'll most likely never play it, but unfortunately there is a lot of music I'll never be able to play.

I'm curious what others think. Is it worth it to play famous pieces even if you have to leave out the hardest, and possibly best, parts? Why?

I don't know what the average Joe thinks when he hears it, but personally when I hear people play Entre, as they approach the fast picado runs, I'm waiting to see if it happens, and it's a huge letdown if it doesn't. OTOH, if they nail it, it's incredible.

All those folks who say fast picado is not important in flamenco, well, I'd have to disagree. I think it's super important- not to do it all the time, but to break it out at the right time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark74

I think this song could be covered as a rumba, but depending on your physiology and level of technique you may or may not ever be able to play the really fast parts.

The question is do you love that music enough to want to play it without the flashy parts? You could just improvise around on the melody I mean why not?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2017 21:22:45

Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Any hopes of playing this with f... (in reply to soclydeza85)

Of course if you can't play it, you can always stay there:

http://hoteldosaguas.com/samara

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2017 21:39:19

soclydeza85

Posts: 60
Joined: Feb. 27 2017

RE: Any hopes of playing this with f... (in reply to soclydeza85)

Thanks for the replies, guys

@ Ricardo: I have plenty of years of playing under my belt (mostly with a pick) and improvisation is nothing new to me. I've never actually tried the solo part to this song with a pick but I don't think my ability is too far off, probably just some focused practice and speed drills would get me to doing those kinds of runs with a pick.

Flamenco is my main (pretty much only, except for a little jazz) focus these days and my goal is to be able to play good flamenco, I just saw playing this song (or any other fitting song) using flamenco techniques as a good way to exercise that technique while messing around with some gypsy jazz. Of course, I wouldn't go trying Black Sabbath or ACDC or something using these techniques, but gypsy jazz (to me, especially the way the Rosenberg Trio plays it) seems fitting to play using flamenco technique, as difficult as it may be and even though it's usually played with a pick as far as I've seen.

@ Mark2: No discouragement on my end; I wasn't expecting to be able to play like that using flamenco techniques anytime soon (if ever), it was just more of a "maybe one day" kind of thing, kind of a goal that would help me along with my technique. I guess my mind frame was more "full immersion leads to fluency" (in that, by trying to play even non-flamenco stuff using flamenco technique, my right hand would have no choice but to become more fluid with those techniques) but trying to tackle this song with flamenco technique would be like trying to write a great literary work in a foreign language when I'm still learning to form sentences, so to speak. In other words: you're right, I'll just use a damn pick for this song haha

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 6 2017 0:11:13

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Any hopes of playing this with f... (in reply to soclydeza85)

Listen to this guy around 40 seconds in. It's not gypsy jazz but I can't but think that if you did want to play gipsy jazz with flamenco technique, that'd be pretty much how to do it. Pretty much picado the whole way through. Doesn't seem to be a problem for him. But then again, Amos Lora was born in a guitar.