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RE: The middle joint in picado   You are logged in as Guest
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Fitz63

 

Posts: 104
Joined: May 16 2016
 

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Miguel de Maria

As a mainly self taught player (I know, I know...) I'm fascinated by the mechanics that you're all talking about. But I don't really understand much. I recently changed my technique after watching some videos (mainly of PDL). Picado is something I've largely avoided, mainly because I couldn't do it very well. But I'd like to. I've attached a video of me playing an edit of Aires Choqueros. I do practice very slowly, but this is how it ends up. My understanding was (until this thread) that it's about wrist position primarily, and wrist height, but I realise now that it's more complicated than that. If anybody would like to critique my picado (or anything else I do) i'd be more than grateful. I've only been using this position for the last 3 weeks, so hopefully it's just a matter of time, but if I'm doing it wrong I'd really like to know. Thanks.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2017 11:50:14
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Fitz63

1. You have good musicality and have no fears about just going for it. THAt is good, but unfortunately you end up with tons of slop and very little clarity in the fast runs, and even many of the medium speed runs, ligados, etc. Simply put, you need to practice in a way that you make every note count. Probably have to slow things down quite a bit. You need to tighten up the rhythm too, don't loosey goosey your way on top of the rhythm track, really feel the exact placement of each note and space in time.

2. If you are copying PDL and others you can observe your big joint knuckle that attaches fingers to your hand. You have a significant bend there, and thusly fairly straight middle joints. Try to flatten that Big knuckle so that it alighns straight with your hand and wrist and you will be closer to what it feels like to do this thing we are discussing.

Hope that helps.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2017 12:19:01
 
Fitz63

 

Posts: 104
Joined: May 16 2016
 

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

1. You have good musicality and have no fears about just going for it. THAt is good, but unfortunately you end up with tons of slop and very little clarity in the fast runs, and even many of the medium speed runs, ligados, etc. Simply put, you need to practice in a way that you make every note count. Probably have to slow things down quite a bit. You need to tighten up the rhythm too, don't loosey goosey your way on top of the rhythm track, really feel the exact placement of each note and space in time.

2. If you are copying PDL and others you can observe your big joint knuckle that attaches fingers to your hand. You have a significant bend there, and thusly fairly straight middle joints. Try to flatten that Big knuckle so that it alighns straight with your hand and wrist and you will be closer to what it feels like to do this thing we are discussing.

Hope that helps.

Ricardo


Thanks for that Ricardo, I really appreciate it. I will definitely look at those issues, thanks
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2017 12:21:33
 
hamia

 

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

5) it is surprising the number of pretty good players who dismiss the MK method, saying that this type of 'clawing' at the strings is wrong. They are wrong.


Or YOU are wrong perhaps?
Once again I think people who believe MJ is pulling at the string are simply confused by the way the fingers look at certain angles. From the side angles, MJ is fixed as the finger is driven through the string. Upon resetting the MJ sometimes straightens or bends depending on which string you are crossing to, assuming the entire hand isn't moving. A reach over and subsequent bending of the MJ might seem like the power of drive comes from that bend, but it doesn't. The string is pushed downward toward top. Perhaps the resistence of stiffening the MJ against the downward push of BJ makes some players believe both joints are working to attack the string, but if you truly relax the BJ and only use MJ to attack then you are only pulling on the string sideways. Very different mechanic.

In the slow black and white vid above of PDL, it is important to notice his entire arm is moving down toward the floor. Because it is an ascending scale, each string cross requires the MJ to reach over (straighten a bit) to reset and plant. The plant occurs thanks to the bending of MJ, but the actual attack of the string, or push through, is done by BJ and MJ and TJ remain fixed. TJ bends only enough to allow for the opposite finger to cross to the next string down after having played the upper string previously.
Ricardo


I don't think it's possible to look at videos and easily work out through which joint the player is directing the force, either BJ or MJ. But when I play I definitely can feel that I am directing the force mainly through the MJ. I studied physics for over 6 years so you are going to have to give me credit for knowing what my fingers are doing! The BJ is involved in lifting and positioning the finger, and also does contribute to the plucking force. When I play (after a warm up) my right hand looks to me pretty much the same as Paco. Now, I can remember when I started back around 2002. There wasn't much on the internet then and for some reason I thought Paco played with very straight fingers, so that's what I tried. And then about a year later I moved to the GM method and it was absolute torture - took months and months before it was even half comfortable. I'm not saying I'm Paco but I can now see that someone using this MJ technique and willing to put in the 3 or 4 hours/day on solid scales for 4 or so years could be in the same league as the maestro. On a good day I sometimes think even I am getting close.

Re your comment about the sideways motion: yes, this is the key to the MJ movement. It imparts a sideways 'snap' to the plucking motion. Very powerful and fast. The BJ helps to get the finger in the right position and can give the string some downward force but the powerful follow through is mainly from the MJ. You can feel this when playing - it's like the fingers are constantly gripping the strings - almost not letting go.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2017 17:59:54
 
athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Fitz63

hamia, would you upload a little video of you doing some picados?
I would like to see/hear your picado.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2017 18:16:24
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to athrane77

quote:

hamia, would you upload a little video of you doing some picados?
I would like to see/hear your picado.


new challenge suggestion: demonstration of picado video with explanation. Winner's explanation will: a) be understandable; b) be anatomically correct and; c) accurately describe and explain what everyone can see happening in the video.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2017 14:43:17

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Fitz63

think less about anatomy and physics, and spend more
time working on your balance and coordination with
the metronome at a super conservative tempo.
I like to set the metronome at half time. It feels less hurried.
Stay down around 120/60bpm and play staccato, going for as
much dead space between notes as possible. Its a balance with
staccato though, because you can build up alot of tension, so be mindful
of that.

Try a guitar support and practice on the left leg. It gets the right
hand/arm in a position where you can square up with the strings
without straining the shoulder.

Mix up techniques together. Dont just practice picado by itself cause
you'll never play it that way in the real world. It will always be preceded by
rasgeo, arps, etc.. It has to feel connected with the other techniques, or
you will always struggle when you have to do a run within a tune, and not
just isolated in a practice session. I have students that do great in an
isolated run in practice, but when playing a tune, the staccato goes away
and they struggle.

You wanna build power, but you dont want the speed to be dependant
on playing hard. You should be able to play fast, yet softly too.
You should have control over the power. Picado should have some fire
in it. Nothing worse than coming out of a loud rasgeo section and then into
a weak and quiet picado. The picado should be dynamically even with a strong
rasgeo. If you cant do that slowly and cleanly, then... well, you get the idea.
I see alot of weak a$$ picado on youtube.

Speed is useless if you have no power and are not clean.
It totally defeats the purpose.
Better to take the speed down, and work on playing clean
with power. A run played super staccato and clean at 140 will
have a greater impact than a run played sloppily and weak at
160.

As usual Ricardo is posting plenty of great stuff to consider.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2017 16:10:28
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to ToddK

Damn Todd, I think I should post this on my wall.

Hope you and the fam are doing good!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2017 16:32:27
 
hamia

 

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

hamia, would you upload a little video of you doing some picados?
I would like to see/hear your picado.


new challenge suggestion: demonstration of picado video with explanation. Winner's explanation will: a) be understandable; b) be anatomically correct and; c) accurately describe and explain what everyone can see happening in the video.


https://youtu.be/ffFc25qwBaU

Ok, I did a quick example. A few points to note. I don't have a normal guitar here so am using a soundless guitar (it can be played with an amp/headphones but I've never used this feature) so the sound is faint. The strings haven't been changed for over a year (except the D string). I also play with absolutely no nails - they are clipped short. Another point is that the narrowness of the guitar makes it difficult to move the upper arm up when playing the bass strings (as the guitar becomes unbalanced) so my wrist gets arched more than I would like.

I am also a bit out of practice and can go faster and more smoothly but, excuses aside, I think it sort of shows my point. I am actually playing with quite a lot of force and if it was on a normal guitar the sound would be very loud. I remember some years ago I nearly jumped out of my chair when I first got that characteristic flamenco picado sound where the strings are played with enough force to create a buzz.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2017 17:22:44
 
hamia

 

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to hamia

This thread is making me practice. Here's another go, I increased the volume a bit

https://youtu.be/nV1CQmoI9DQ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2017 19:59:59
 
jg7238

 

Posts: 2869
Joined: May 11 2009
 

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to hamia

This video probably has nothing to do with this thread but wanted to post here. Hopefully it's ok with Simon. Just learned this new exercise by Rafael Cortes which is the reason for the slight hesitations.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2017 21:16:18

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to hamia

quote:

Here's another go, I increased the volume a bit


Impossible to tell what is going on. I do see alot of wasted movement.
I can't really make out much else. You need a real guitar.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2017 21:46:29
 
rombsix

Posts: 7805
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to jg7238

quote:

This video probably has nothing to do with this thread but wanted to post here. Hopefully it's ok with Simon. Just learned this new exercise by Rafael Cortes which is the reason for the slight hesitations.




_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2017 22:01:28
 
Fitz63

 

Posts: 104
Joined: May 16 2016
 

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to ToddK

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToddK

think less about anatomy and physics, and spend more
time working on your balance and coordination with
the metronome at a super conservative tempo.
I like to set the metronome at half time. It feels less hurried.
Stay down around 120/60bpm and play staccato, going for as
much dead space between notes as possible. Its a balance with
staccato though, because you can build up alot of tension, so be mindful
of that.

Try a guitar support and practice on the left leg. It gets the right
hand/arm in a position where you can square up with the strings
without straining the shoulder.

Mix up techniques together. Dont just practice picado by itself cause
you'll never play it that way in the real world. It will always be preceded by
rasgeo, arps, etc.. It has to feel connected with the other techniques, or
you will always struggle when you have to do a run within a tune, and not
just isolated in a practice session. I have students that do great in an
isolated run in practice, but when playing a tune, the staccato goes away
and they struggle.

You wanna build power, but you dont want the speed to be dependant
on playing hard. You should be able to play fast, yet softly too.
You should have control over the power. Picado should have some fire
in it. Nothing worse than coming out of a loud rasgeo section and then into
a weak and quiet picado. The picado should be dynamically even with a strong
rasgeo. If you cant do that slowly and cleanly, then... well, you get the idea.
I see alot of weak a$$ picado on youtube.

Speed is useless if you have no power and are not clean.
It totally defeats the purpose.
Better to take the speed down, and work on playing clean
with power. A run played super staccato and clean at 140 will
have a greater impact than a run played sloppily and weak at
160.

As usual Ricardo is posting plenty of great stuff to consider.


That all sounds like great advice. Thanks for that.

_____________________________

https://ontheshouldersofgiants2017.wordpress.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2017 22:36:17
 
JohnWalshGuitar

Posts: 517
Joined: Aug. 10 2009
 

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Fitz63

Listen to what Todd & Ricardo said.
Practice slowly & correctly. Plant all the time.
Work on projection & volume. Soft, weak picado is practically useless in a real flamenco scenario, regardless of whether it is fast or slow.
Give yourself a good number of years and don't expect things quickly.
Know where the beat is and where your picado is taking place in relation to that beat.
No shortcuts

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2017 22:54:46
 
jg7238

 

Posts: 2869
Joined: May 11 2009
 

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to rombsix

quote:




Nice...Thanks Ramzi... Much clearer than Rafael's video. His video is too dim and quite frankly it was hard to see his hands.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2017 23:52:18
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to hamia

quote:

ORIGINAL: hamia

This thread is making me practice. Here's another go, I increased the volume a bit

https://youtu.be/nV1CQmoI9DQ


Can't sense a solid plant and drive at the speed you are going, and you have a slight twist toward your thumb side so that you play off the thumb side edge of nails....that might be due to nail shape? Anyway with that type of guitar is sounds as though you have a soft attack despite what you claim (on a normal guitar you say the attack is strong and loud). I recommend a real guitar and slower example to get your point of mechanics across.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2017 0:08:37
 
jg7238

 

Posts: 2869
Joined: May 11 2009
 

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to JohnWalshGuitar

Ricardo pretty much summed up everything I wanted to mention. The descending run at 1:42 is probably best to practice it much slower with better articulation. Playing some scales with stacatto slowly will definitely help. (example: playing with Index then stopping right away with M. PLay with Middle finger and stopping with Index right away, etc.... This will help a great deal for sure.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2017 0:27:40
 
Fitz63

 

Posts: 104
Joined: May 16 2016
 

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to jg7238

Thanks for that guys. I do practice slowly, although probably not enough. I've changed many things over the last couple of weeks and I need to go back to basics. I have tried doing staccato exercises but they're hard!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2017 7:54:36
 
Fitz63

 

Posts: 104
Joined: May 16 2016
 

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

2. If you are copying PDL and others you can observe your big joint knuckle that attaches fingers to your hand. You have a significant bend there, and thusly fairly straight middle joints. Try to flatten that Big knuckle so that it alighns straight with your hand and wrist and you will be closer to what it feels like to do this thing we are discussing.



I've just been working on the Adam del Monte Picado exercises and I notice that he has quite straight fingers? I'm quite liking doing as you suggested though. It feels like one of my main issues is having equal strength and clarity on every string. And this seems to help. Thanks again

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2017 14:54:33

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Fitz63

Miguel,
i was watching a few of your older videos in which you practice scales with
the metronome.
I was surprised to notice how far off from the metronome you are playing.
Its like you were not paying any attention to the pulse at all.
The most painful example was your malaguena video. You play a bit and then
keep moving the metronome faster and faster, yet you're never playing "with" the metronome. And as the metronome goes faster and faster, you seemed to be under the notion that you were keeping up with it, when you never really got past 140 or so.

If you never noticed this, then that should be a huge insight into your challenges
with rest stroke speed.
Because speed has everything to do with rhythmic control and effective self monitoring.
And its those two things, you seem to be completely ignoring. (not on purpose hopefully)


Have you since figured this out?

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2017 20:39:24
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to ToddK

Todd, I do have that problem for sure! I am not really sure if it's solved, probably not. I haven't really tried to play any exercises than 120 or so for quite a while. Maybe if I just focus on control and making sure the rhythm lines up, things will fall into place.

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Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ


Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2017 23:53:18

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

Maybe if I just focus on control and making sure the rhythm lines up, things will fall into place.


It definitely wouldn't hurt. :)

I like that you were motivated to post some video, and get us talking about it.

This technique is a big challenge for all of us.
I hope we can all talk more about how we're practicing with the metronome.

i think its one of those things that everybody assumes they know how to do,
but i think many people dont and could use some guidance.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2017 4:19:54
 
jg7238

 

Posts: 2869
Joined: May 11 2009
 

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to ToddK

I agree with Todd's last post in regards to picado being a difficult technique. Being always consistent is not gonna happen. Many factors involved such as nails, state of mind, etc..... can affect this technique. I've seen a few interviews with Paco de Lucia where he says that he's practicing a scale passage and he'll just miss most of the notes and he says " I've been doing it all of my life". He says it's better not to question why you miss because you will lose your mind. The guitar is a very hard instrument. If this is coming from him then we all definitely should just enjoy the journey. Speed is the last thing you should focus on. Tone and clarity are way more important.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2017 5:02:05
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Fitz63

Anything unique to the world of requinto JG? All of those guys tend to be monsters at picado.....

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2017 5:29:28
 
jg7238

 

Posts: 2869
Joined: May 11 2009
 

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Leñador

Yeah, most requintistas can rip. The mechanics are slightly different though. In flamenco, the picado is a bit stronger than the rest stroke used in musica de trio. Requinto is smaller too. Gilberto Puente was a monster. Check this out starting at around 37.17.



  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2017 6:06:43
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Fitz63

That's insane! My best friends wedding was yesterday and he had a "mariachi" type group with a requinto and that guy tore it up. We talked a bit after and he tripped out on my rageo and arpeggio but I bowed to his picado, it was just lightening.

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2017 6:50:29

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Fitz63

Made a video :)



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2017 11:20:26
 
Fitz63

 

Posts: 104
Joined: May 16 2016
 

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to ToddK

Thanks ToddK, very useful.
Just a practical question on staccato. I play i on a string, stop this with m, which plays the next note on the same string. So far, so good. Now I want to play the next note on the next string. So I stop the note with i, but then play the next note, on a different string also with i? So I'm stopping the note on one string with i, then also playing the next string with i? Thanks

Edit - I guess the note before the string change is not stopped?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2017 12:54:27
 
JohnWalshGuitar

Posts: 517
Joined: Aug. 10 2009
 

RE: The middle joint in picado (in reply to Fitz63

Alan, the point of practicing staccato is to be planted on the string in preparation for the next note. Staccato is the end result of the planting/preparation process, not the end in itself.
In answer to your question, plant the finger where the next note to be played is

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2017 13:01:05
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