Avoiding "Economy" Picado

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soclydeza85

Posts: 60
Joined: Feb. 27 2017

Avoiding "Economy" Picado

I'm still relatively new to the flamenco style (about a month) and one thing I've seen again and again in videos/threads where people explain picado is to always alternate to the other finger moving to an adjacent string (as opposed to using the same finger when you switch to an adjacent string). Being that this is a stressed point that comes from people who are much, much further along with their flamenco techniques than myself, I do listen to this advice and try to avoid "sweeping" over to the next string.

However, I'm wondering why this is a general rule to follow. When using a flat pick, this technique is known as "economy picking" and is generally thought of as better technique; since your pick is already lined up against the next string, you might as well take advantage of that and not waste extra motion.

Perhaps it'll become clearer as my picado gets faster, but I'm wondering: why is this "economy" motion to be avoided when doing picado?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2017 3:24:00

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Avoiding "Economy" Picado (in reply to soclydeza85)

All i know is that Paco Peña experimented with it for a while and that it outclassed his normal picado in speed, but he didn't like the sound of it so he abandoned the experiment after a while. I can imagine the need to land on the next string "sweep ready" limits the angle/power of attack and with it the "bite" you want to achieve in picado but i lack the experience to tell for sure (that demands some serious studying/comparisment over a longer period of time).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2017 7:18:44

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Avoiding "Economy" Picado (in reply to soclydeza85)

quote:

ORIGINAL: soclydeza85

I'm still relatively new to the flamenco style (about a month) and one thing I've seen again and again in videos/threads where people explain picado is to always alternate to the other finger moving to an adjacent string (as opposed to using the same finger when you switch to an adjacent string). Being that this is a stressed point that comes from people who are much, much further along with their flamenco techniques than myself, I do listen to this advice and try to avoid "sweeping" over to the next string.

However, I'm wondering why this is a general rule to follow. When using a flat pick, this technique is known as "economy picking" and is generally thought of as better technique; since your pick is already lined up against the next string, you might as well take advantage of that and not waste extra motion.

Perhaps it'll become clearer as my picado gets faster, but I'm wondering: why is this "economy" motion to be avoided when doing picado?

Very simply put, you CANNOT physically do that with ASCENDING SCALES. So you could develop this thing for decending runs only. In fact all players do it at times due to certain phrasing details, but you need to develop strict alternation as well which is much harder to master. Once you can work on your ascending scales alternating fingers, you apply alternating to many different runs and sequences and notice the advantages to this ability that were not so obvious when first learning. Hope this helps.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2017 10:41:39

athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: Avoiding "Economy" Picado (in reply to soclydeza85)

Jose Luis Rodriguez uses it a lot.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2017 20:34:00

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Avoiding "Economy" Picado (in reply to athrane77)

quote:

Jose Luis Rodriguez uses it a lot.

but i think only when there is a slurred/pull off note between the repetition of the same finger. Gerardo Nuñez also does this on the tangos falseta in picado section of Encuentro vid, and Chicuelo does it quite often in picado in Encuentro vid (to name to examples) but always what happens is that the slurred/pulled off note takes the place of the alternate finger between the repetition of the same finger.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2017 18:21:38

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Avoiding "Economy" Picado (in reply to soclydeza85)

quote:

strict alternation

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Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2017 0:54:30

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Avoiding "Economy" Picado (in reply to soclydeza85)

If I catch your drift, you're talking about something that has been called "dragging" on other threads here. You might enjoy this thread.
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=292886&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=remate

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2017 1:30:29

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Avoiding "Economy" Picado (in reply to soclydeza85)

My teacher always dings me for doing it when I am supposed to be alternating.
It would make for a very bad habit while learning picado.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2017 15:30:18

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: Avoiding "Economy" Picado (in reply to Cervantes)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cervantes

My teacher always dings me for doing it when I am supposed to be alternating.
It would make for a very bad habit while learning picado.

Yes, but as a separate technique (an addition to, not a substitution for, alternating i-m picado), it is very interesting. Rafael Cortez seems to have come up with a 2-finger alternative of 3-finger picado for the case of descending runs with 3 notes per string(*). It has the benefit of (the feel of) the lower rate associated with ami picado, but as imi still uses just i and m fingers - so presumably it is easier to learn than the ami setup.

(*) Meaning, instead of ami ami ami... it is now imi-imi-imi... where "i-i" is the index finger playing on two adjacent strings without lifting (the dragging bit).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2017 15:58:05

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Avoiding "Economy" Picado (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cervantes

My teacher always dings me for doing it when I am supposed to be alternating.
It would make for a very bad habit while learning picado.

Yes, but as a separate technique (an addition to, not a substitution for, alternating i-m picado), it is very interesting. Rafael Cortez seems to have come up with a 2-finger alternative of 3-finger picado for the case of descending runs with 3 notes per string(*). It has the benefit of (the feel of) the lower rate associated with ami picado, but as imi still uses just i and m fingers - so presumably it is easier to learn than the ami setup.

(*) Meaning, instead of ami ami ami... it is now imi-imi-imi... where "i-i" is the index finger playing on two adjacent strings without lifting (the dragging bit).

I want to see him doing that. Cuz I only have seen him use a-m-i.....(eye roll)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2017 20:12:15

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: Avoiding "Economy" Picado (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cervantes

My teacher always dings me for doing it when I am supposed to be alternating.
It would make for a very bad habit while learning picado.

Yes, but as a separate technique (an addition to, not a substitution for, alternating i-m picado), it is very interesting. Rafael Cortez seems to have come up with a 2-finger alternative of 3-finger picado for the case of descending runs with 3 notes per string(*). It has the benefit of (the feel of) the lower rate associated with ami picado, but as imi still uses just i and m fingers - so presumably it is easier to learn than the ami setup.

(*) Meaning, instead of ami ami ami... it is now imi-imi-imi... where "i-i" is the index finger playing on two adjacent strings without lifting (the dragging bit).

I want to see him doing that. Cuz I only have seen him use a-m-i.....(eye roll)

Right. I noticed things apparently got a bit tense in the other thread a while back :-) I downloaded his "ejercicio picado" video and played it at 10-20% speed in VLC for the part where he plays the run at warp speed (not the slow run-through). It seems to show him using imi-imi wherever possible - not throughout as a few im alternations are needed where the imi-imi stuff does not fit a particular segment. I will look at it again more carefully and try to write down the finger sequence I think is happening.

Video is this one:

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2017 20:32:42

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Avoiding "Economy" Picado (in reply to kitarist)

Horrible quality vid but with this particular pattern I can just barely make it out that yes he drags sometimes. Better quality vid would be great.

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www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2017 20:55:28

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Avoiding "Economy" Picado (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

I downloaded his "ejercicio picado" video and played it at 10-20% speed in VLC for the part where he plays the run at warp speed (not the slow run-through)

Either the original video gives a way more clear image.... or you have bionicle eyes :-)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2017 9:40:10

jamh2000

Posts: 41
Joined: Jan. 13 2012

RE: Avoiding "Economy" Picado (in reply to soclydeza85)

I drag. I unwittingly learnt to do it while I was focused on playing bass. It was horrible to discover that my finger plucking, which I was pretty happy with, was actually limited by this really bad and engrained habit. I'm still working on undoing it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2017 11:26:15

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Avoiding "Economy" Picado (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

Yes, but as a separate technique (an addition to, not a substitution for, alternating i-m picado), it is very interesting. Rafael Cortez seems to have come up with a 2-finger alternative of 3-finger picado for the case of descending runs with 3 notes per string(*). It has the benefit of (the feel of) the lower rate associated with ami picado, but as imi still uses just i and m fingers - so presumably it is easier to learn than the ami setup.

(*) Meaning, instead of ami ami ami... it is now imi-imi-imi... where "i-i" is the index finger playing on two adjacent strings without lifting (the dragging bit).

You will always be able to find an example of someone who plays really well IN SPITE of doing something generally accepted to be "wrong".

Even though one guy can get good results with an idiosyncratic or "wrong" technique doesn't mean they should necessarily be followed or copied.

But you are free to experiment with that if you want to.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2017 12:19:10

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: Avoiding "Economy" Picado (in reply to Erik van Goch)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch

quote:

I downloaded his "ejercicio picado" video and played it at 10-20% speed in VLC for the part where he plays the run at warp speed (not the slow run-through)

Either the original video gives a way more clear image.... or you have bionicle eyes :-)

No, this is the video, no better original - however in VLC player you can adjust everything - brightness, contrast, sharpness - which is what I did.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2017 16:41:27

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: Avoiding "Economy" Picado (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Yes, but as a separate technique (an addition to, not a substitution for, alternating i-m picado), it is very interesting. Rafael Cortez seems to have come up with a 2-finger alternative of 3-finger picado for the case of descending runs with 3 notes per string(*). It has the benefit of (the feel of) the lower rate associated with ami picado, but as imi still uses just i and m fingers - so presumably it is easier to learn than the ami setup.

(*) Meaning, instead of ami ami ami... it is now imi-imi-imi... where "i-i" is the index finger playing on two adjacent strings without lifting (the dragging bit).

You will always be able to find an example of someone who plays really well IN SPITE of doing something generally accepted to be "wrong".

Even though one guy can get good results with an idiosyncratic or "wrong" technique doesn't mean they should necessarily be followed or copied.

But you are free to experiment with that if you want to.

Sure, fair point. I think I was careful to state that one can explore in addition to, not as a substitution of, alternating i-m technique.

Still, I thought he gets points for clever use of imi to replace ami in descending runs - to me ami picado seems a very different beast as my a finger, being shorter than the m finger, necessitates a different setup for i, m compared to the setup for i-m picado. This seems to be because with i-m picado my hand is at a bit of an angle accommodating the longer m finger compared to the i finger. But when you add the a finger, I have to change it (bend the m finger more or change angle, or a bit of both) so the a finger can reach. Feels too different to get a spill-over skill effect, so to speak.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2017 16:50:41