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RE: Most incredible picado of all ti... (in reply to sartorius)
How exciting to hear someone do lightning fast scales over and over again. Reminds me of listening to a couple of Manuel Lopez Ramos's students who could do the Segovia major and minor scales with the metronome at 200 (4 notes per beat).
It's not my cup of tea but who am I to criticize such amazing technique.
RE: Most incredible picado of all ti... (in reply to sartorius)
Awesome indeed...wish i could avatar ilke that. (wonder if any of our female members may prefer a naked Nino humping a negra? ~ there ~ ive done it..cant unsee that in your minds eye :~ ) ..picado's also killer ~ seem to remember florian losing sleep with that Picado - or maybe another fandangos de Pura - might try to hunt that thread down
RE: Most incredible picado of all ti... (in reply to AlVãl)
quote:
Awesome indeed...wish i could avatar ilke that. (wonder if any of our female members may prefer a naked Nino humping a negra? ~ there ~ ive done it..cant unsee that in your minds eye :~ ) ..picado's also killer ~ seem to remember florian losing sleep with that Picado - or maybe another fandangos de Pura - might try to hunt that thread down
Avatars like that are why we don't have any female members who post. The guitar jocks pissed them all off so it's not worth their time.
Personally, I'mnot in favor of picadosadism, but Nino de Pura is not just another picado drone. He really pulls a tone out of the guitar he's not a mere tickler. His ideas are good and he can accompany. Also his deep tone, thumb work and arpeggio in the context of flamenco guitar slays Segovia or any student of Segovia's that ever lived. Two totally different ways of thinking.
RE: Most incredible picado of all ti... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
Also his deep tone, thumb work and arpeggio in the context of flamenco guitar slays Segovia or any student of Segovia's that ever lived.
Stephen, I was referring to the diatonic major and minor scales fingered by Segovia but played by Alphonso Moreno and others who were students of Manuel Lopez Ramos. Segovia was a great master but blazing picado technique was not his forte.
RE: Most incredible picado of all ti... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
picadosadism
Or it's neighbouring affliction Sadpicadoism Nothing like a explosive .. Line in a Fandangos or an Alegria - like the final flare in a falseta - just makes the world a better place But there's many many other things to get excited about with flamenco guitar - sometimes it's kinda hidden - behind or responding to the cante
I have one Nina de Puro album - great playing and all but kind of a bit of a cheese platter of a disc ... Like hearing him in the above setting Yet to check out his DVD
RE: Most incredible picado of all ti... (in reply to jshelton5040)
quote:
Stephen, I was referring to the diatonic major and minor scales fingered by Segovia but played by Alphonso Moreno and others who were students of Manuel Lopez Ramos. Segovia was a great master but blazing picado technique was not his forte.
Oh fiddlesticks Abel Carlevaros scales are better than AS's, but of course we all get AS's shoved at us.
Most of the time I don't like Sadopicado, or also know as Picadosadistic behavior, but Nino de Pura is a gutty player. All I'm saying
RE: Most incredible picado of all ti... (in reply to AlVãl)
quote:
Or it's neighbouring affliction Sadpicadoism Nothing like a explosive .. Line in a Fandangos or an Alegria - like the final flare in a falseta - just makes the world a better place But there's many many other things to get excited about with flamenco guitar - sometimes it's kinda hidden - behind or responding to the cante
I have one Nina de Puro album - great playing and all but kind of a bit of a cheese platter of a disc ... Like hearing him in the above setting Yet to check out his DVD
I generally am turn off by sadpicadoistic virtuososomasichism, but I saw Nino de Pura once play a fandango solo and he ripped off this whole copla of picado in the most tasteful way and sustained the whole copla with a singers line of picado. Of course this is a cheap tawdry parlour trick pulled off by a player with bionic technique, but when we walked outside after the show we said what the hell just happened? It was really cool actually and he had the audacity to do it despite the cheese factor. Would I rather hear Antonio Moya play solea por bulerias for singer, of course, but I like some showbiz once in a while too.
RE: Most incredible picado of all ti... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
I saw Nino de Pura once play a fandango solo and he ripped off this whole copla of picado in the most tasteful way
The best flamenco grupo I have ever seen was Panseco y Aurora Vergas al cante, Daniel al toque and Bobete y El Eléctrico a palmas.
El Niño played in totally different formas for Panseco, who is a serious cantaor, then for Aurora, who is festera, when he put the público de pie with his picado when Aurora was resting between coplas. He is a real master and when all of them played only palmas, he was at the same level of compás as the maestros.
And he produced Aurora´s CD.
Niño de Puro is one of the greats.
I understand that he changed to Condes only when his beloved Barba was wrecked in an accident
RE: Most incredible picado of all ti... (in reply to Dudnote)
I'm pretty sure they already poop in compas. Maybe even do contratiempo.
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From: Washington DC
RE: Most incredible picado of all ti... (in reply to FERREREZAKI)
quote:
ORIGINAL: FERREREZAKI
Have you ever heard of Paco de Lucía? Niño de Pura is great, but he's got nothing on Paco!
Niño de Pura is generation 1 of the Paqueros (disciples of Paco) along with Tomatito, Gerardo Nuñez, Rafael Riqueni, Manolo Franco, Cañizares, etc. I would admit his picado to be best of all of them, but there is that concert with Banderas and Cañizares that is pretty hard to beat. As a composer his music never grabbed me despite his skill, compared to some of the others. I agree his work with Aurora Vargas was fantastic and exemplary, highly recommend. Along with Nunez with Indio Gitano I feel both Niño and Gerardo to be underrated as accompanists due to lack of a large body of work there, and coupled with their monster technique they spearhead the "virtuoso" genre that flamenco aficionados love to hate. Tomatito was lucky to be chosen by Camaron and later ALL the Camaroneros (duquende potito etc etc) but my opinion that the best of all that "generation 1 paqueros" was Manolo Franco, if you ever got to see him accompany a singer live. Great charisma and support for the singer on stage. IMO (talking about accompaniment). Along side of these guys we have Moraito that everybody loves, who technically IS a paquero IMO, but retains that old school jerez connection and pretty much blue printed "perfect" accompaniment for all time with his HUGE body of work with singers, thus avoiding that bad "virtuoso" category the rest get lumped into.
After that we have our generation 2 paqueros so to speak beginning with vicente amigo who really stole the show after dealing both great solo virtuoso material and innovative cante accompaniment recordings (Pele, Remedios Amaya, Jose Merce etc) pushing the movement forward toward the present. We notice picado speed often takes a backseat to rhythmic sophistication with this generation. I personally gravitate my tastes toward the generation 1 style more but there are a couple modern players I really like such as Antonio Rey, Jesus del Rosario, Diego del Morao, etc.
RE: Most incredible picado of all ti... (in reply to Ricardo)
Interesting. Any chance you could expand a bit on this:
quote:
Moraito that everybody loves, who technically IS a paquero IMO
That connection never really occured to me before. I always just thought "Jerez".
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Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Most incredible picado of all ti... (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
Interesting. Any chance you could expand a bit on this:
quote:
Moraito that everybody loves, who technically IS a paquero IMO
That connection never really occured to me before. I always just thought "Jerez".
Ok, well, it's a pretty big can of worms. Lets just look at buleria, what he is famous for and what many consider "jerez style". First of all Jerez style goes back to Javier Molina and follows into toque by Manuel Morao, Parrilla, Cepero, and later via maestro Aguila to Nuñez and others of modern era. Bulerias was always pretty quick and driving with the way the falsetas went. Moraito retains some of that but generally slowed things down so he could better express the contra tiempos and backbeat phrasing that (IMO) was introduced by PDL. In other words I hear Moraito playing more in the style of Punta del Faro, than Manuel Morao. Also there is that two foot tapping thing PDL used to do all the time that he adopted unlike majority of players. To see some concrete examples of falsetas and phrasing, consider this single performance: A (1:59), B (2:09), C (5:53), D (7:58) for example:
And the sources: A (1:57), B (2:04)
C (2:57), much faster of course lol!
D (0:25), again, much faster
Have fun with those, there is lots more but hopefully my point is made.
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Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Most incredible picado of all ti... (in reply to sartorius)
In El Tempul at :25 it looks like i down, i up, and a down. Faucher has it i down, a up( I presume-he doesn't specify) and i up. Comments? It's super hard for me to get either at a decent tempo.
Great observations Ricardo. I never caught these things he took from Paco before.
RE: Most incredible picado of all ti... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mark2
In El Tempul at :25, it looks like i down, i up and a down. Faucher has it i down, a up( I presume- he doesn't specify), and i up. Comments? It's super hard to bring it to a decent speed either way for me.
I think it starts with i down (together with golpe with a). Then you have 5 sets of the usual triplet rasgueado i up, a down, i down. Then this whole sequence repeats 2 more times. (this is 0:25 - 0:29 described).
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Most incredible picado of all ti... (in reply to kitarist)
Well, what happens is "a" comes up necessarily to prepare immediately after the golpes, ALONG with i up. So one can argue about which finger, a or i is making the significant string contact when going super fast. What would be important regarding Faucher's transcription is whether or not the VERY NEXT stroke is "a" DOWN followed by i down....which is how it has to be in order to achieve the sequence to end on the last i down stroke. For me it's best to think about as i down i up a down, repeat doing golpes every other time if you can. The main challenge is the golpe along with i down AFTER "a" finger plays, as he does on the record. In this video he doesn't do that, only golpes on the start of each phrase.
Moraito and Tomatito do this thing reversed, i up on the beat, flicking i down from thumb, and NO GOLPES. Perhaps that is how Faucher wrote it as well???
EDIT:I was just reminded about this arguement years back before this Paco vid existed. I end up doing just like PDL at :33 here, and show the slow version at 4:00, which is how I thought he did it on the record with more golpes. Only difference is I bend and flick from my thumb, which I now consider wrong or not necessary:
RE: Most incredible picado of all ti... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo For me it's best to think about as i down i up a down, repeat doing golpes every other time if you can. The main challenge is the golpe along with i down AFTER "a" finger plays, as he does on the record. In this video he doesn't do that, only golpes on the start of each phrase.
Thanks - I actually got this :-) So you are saying it is the same sequence of strokes, but one can think of them grouped differently - also with the option of golpe-ing with a on any i-down - like you do in your video.
I.e. to think of it as : ( i down, i up, a down), ( i down, i up, a down),... where the first stroke in each triplet can be along with golpe with a, compared to i down, ( i up, a down, i down), ( i up, a down, i down),... as I described it , where only the very first i down outside the parentheses is done together with golpe with a , as in the PdL El Tempul video .
BTW thank you very much, Ricardo, for your explanations and knowledge-sharing here and in other threads - I am learning a lot.
RE: Most incredible picado of all ti... (in reply to sartorius)
Ricardo, Nice breakdown on how Moraito is 'modern'. Also his use of space and rests, is modern. He plays contratiempo but he also uses space in a way that relies on palmas to carry the rests which occur in the middle of a phrase or melodic line. His placement is not like Morao.
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Most incredible picado of all ti... (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
ORIGINAL: kitarist
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo For me it's best to think about as i down i up a down, repeat doing golpes every other time if you can. The main challenge is the golpe along with i down AFTER "a" finger plays, as he does on the record. In this video he doesn't do that, only golpes on the start of each phrase.
Thanks - I actually got this :-) So you are saying it is the same sequence of strokes, but one can think of them grouped differently - also with the option of golpe-ing with a on any i-down - like you do in your video.
I.e. to think of it as : ( i down, i up, a down), ( i down, i up, a down),... where the first stroke in each triplet can be along with golpe with a, compared to i down, ( i up, a down, i down), ( i up, a down, i down),... as I described it , where only the very first i down outside the parentheses is done together with golpe with a , as in the PdL El Tempul video .
BTW thank you very much, Ricardo, for your explanations and knowledge-sharing here and in other threads - I am learning a lot.
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