RE: Another victim of dry weather...

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constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1674
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to johnguitar)

John--
I wasn't saying that, but I will now: Titebond glues very well to itself. This is well known. But Titebond (yellow glue) is aliphatic resin glue, and PVA (polyvinyl alcohol) is white glue and I don't know whether it bonds well to itself or to Titebond.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2017 1:06:26

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

John--
I wasn't saying that, but I will now: Titebond glues very well to itself. This is well known. But Titebond (yellow glue) is aliphatic resin glue, and PVA (polyvinyl alcohol) is white glue and I don't know whether it bonds well to itself or to Titebond.

Titebond is a modified PVA glue itself. As for it being a widely held notion that you are safe to reglue over Titebond, I find that highly questionable.

The proof is in the pudding, if you have repair work that sustains after being reglued over Titebond so be it.

There are many technical problems with regluing joints that are not cleared of an old glue. Hide glue is one of the few glues that can sustain being reglued over itself and that is one of the reasons it's valuable in repair shops.

One of the maxims you hear over and over when being taught to repair is don't reglue over white glue - of course it also depends if you get taught by violin repair people or contemporary guitar makers.

Not that I'm trying to tell anyone how to do it, but after having used hide glue since 1978 when I was first introduced to how to use it, and having used many gallons of Titebond for various non guitar making jobs, I'm skeptical of regluing Titebond over Titebond in every repair condition.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2017 2:08:41

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to estebanana)

Not wanting to start an argument but my experience with titebond original is the same as Ethan's.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2017 14:21:15

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Well, if anyone has the guts, the titebond test is easy.
*Build a guitar
*glue the bridge with titebond original.
*Take the bridge off
*reglue the bridge with titebond org.
*String the guitar with extra high tension and tune up an extra half a tone

Sit and watch what happens for a couple of years. If it holds, then Titebond org can be used for regluing over itself.
If you want to be really investigator like, then build another guitar and repeat the above, but use Hot Hide Glue.

Ramzi: good luck. I´m sure your man will fix your problem.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2017 16:43:42

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1674
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I once glued a bridge on with the tie block towards the sound hole. I used Titebond as always. I removed the bridge and re-glued it with the tie block towards the tail, with Titebond. No problems ensued.

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I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2017 17:03:43

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Ramzi: good luck. I´m sure your man will fix your problem.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2017 17:51:21

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

I once glued a bridge on with the tie block towards the sound hole. I used Titebond as always. I removed the bridge and re-glued it with the tie block towards the tail, with Titebond. No problems ensued.

Ethan,
May I ask how you removed the bridge? I presume you used heat but can you expand on your method.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2017 18:09:24

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

**trigger warning--dead guitar pic**

So this was the first guitar I ever bought. It was like $700 at Easy Music in Honolulu back in '96. After a decade in Hawaii, it came to the desert in 2006, and one sad day last year, I opened the case to find this. Any advice as how to reglue the bridge?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0U42G_4yqQNQ2FBRWpzVW55V0U/view?usp=sharing

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2017 18:52:24

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1674
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

Ethan,
May I ask how you removed the bridge? I presume you used heat but can you expand on your method.

John--
I used a hot spatula, one that is about one inch wide by 8 inches long with an off-set plastic handle, Good Grips, or something like that. It is very thin. I heated it on a clothes iron and gradually slid it under the bridge.

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I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2017 19:57:17

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1674
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

Any advice as how to reglue the bridge?

Miguel--
It looks like a clean separation due to cross-grain construction and extreme changes in humidity. (However, perhaps there is a piece of spruce on the bridge near the lower-right corner of the bridge in the photo?) Assuming that the surfaces match up perfectly and that yellow glue was used--it looks like it--then I would re-glue by applying a moderate amount of yellow glue to the bottom of the bridge and clamping it in place overnight. The way I clamp is with two cam clamps, one on each bridge wing, with enough pressure applied to push down some of the arching of the soundboard, so that the soundboard is pushing back.

http://www.rockler.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/720x720/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/4/0/40933-02-1000.jpg

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
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www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2017 21:22:53

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Miguel,

Ethan is correct (although I don't use his clamping technique) but don't try to fix this yourself. Take it to a competent luthier, it's a simple fix.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2017 23:24:47

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

If yellow glue was used originally I think it illustrates Anders' point perfectly. You can.t tell from a photo.

Bridge regluing is not as straight forward as put glue on it and slap it back down. The bridge needs to be cleaned in some cases and the top needs to be examined.....why bother explaining why......

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2017 23:56:02

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Miguel (and welcome back btw.

)

I zoomed in on your photo and even though its difficult to judge from a photo.
Here´s my thoughts.
The work when gluing the bridge on has been horrible. The amount of glue on the bridge and on the soundboard is very big and I´m surprised it has held up so long. It also looks like it is PVA glue that has been used and that makes my surprise even bigger.
Do as Shelton wrote, go to an experienced repairman. Both the bridge and the soundboeard needs serious cleaning.

The good thing is that because of the use of such a huge amount of poor quality glue, there´s very little harm on the parts.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2017 7:14:10

johnguitar

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Thanks Ethan, I appreciate you sharing your experience. I am sure that a joint full of glue like Miguel's is very different from what amounts to a starved glue joint like Ramzi's. The starved joint by definition would have less glue and more wood to bond to. I found this when searching for information on this subject. http://www.mcknightguitars.com/glue-hardness.html If anyone is really tempted to take this to heart they should probably do the tests themselves.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2017 17:53:05

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to johnguitar)

pouring a puddle of glue into a cavity is hardly a determinate test for adhesion. I've read several places that titebond adheres well to itself and have used it many times on previously glued surfaces with excellent results.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2017 18:32:33

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Thanks, guys for the advice. (good to see you, too Anders. Did you move back to Scandinavia?)

Looks like I'll just take it to someone. Problem with Phoenix is we don't actually have a luthier here. We do have "techs" and electric guitar guys. Maybe one of you guys should just move to Arizona. It hardly ever gets cold here or anything.

The guitar, by the way, was by Matsuoka from the mid-90s. Surprising to see them make such a seemingly elementary error, wouldn't you say?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2017 19:58:59

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1674
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I don't think they made an error. Cross-grain construction, where two pieces of wood are glued together with their grains running perpendicular to each other, cannot survive drastic changes in humidity, because each piece is expanding and contracting in perpendicular directions. That's why the moldings on chests that are made of solid wood have to be nailed or screwed on. And I doubt that they would have used an excessive amount of glue, because it would just make a lot of work for them to clean up the squeeze out. In fact, I could see in the picture that squeeze out didn't go to all of the edges of the bridge.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2017 21:51:33

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to estebanana)

Good grief there is a lot of glue snobbery!

. Just Krazy glue that sh.t!!!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2017 13:26:24

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

No no no SET XP 2 stage epoxy if you REALLY want it to stick.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2017 14:01:59

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Good grief there is a lot of glue snobbery! . Just Krazy glue that sh.t!!!

I just mask it off with some paper towels and spray some formica rubber cement out of a can.

Somedays I figure why even mask it off?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2017 14:17:34

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to estebanana)

I see there is a dark conspiracy here to hide from The People the virtues of fish glue. To the barricades!!

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2017 19:02:17

Joan Maher

Posts: 213
Joined: Dec. 3 2013

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

https://youtu.be/7WAwuSK36Gw

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2017 19:26:15

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1674
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

I see there is a dark conspiracy here to hide from The People the virtues of fish glue. To the barricades!!

Fish see it otherwise.

To the barracudas!

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www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2017 23:05:01