Another victim of dry weather...

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rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

Another victim of dry weather...

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xjgqw1743c5xz1u/AADw5zKCTmd4ngo9622MVEe2a?dl=0

Crap!!!

I thought my new Jorge de Zofia would be OK sitting in a case all the time with a humidifier running 24/7 in the room and heater only occasionally turned on. Apparently not...

(humidity level sits around 25% despite the humidifier on all the time - room is big, heat despite fan off is apparently still warming up the room, and apparently the small humidifier cannot keep up)

Is this a serious repair job?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2017 7:14:56

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to rombsix)

No it's nothing serious. Just a little glue (better if HHG) and a clamp.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2017 7:41:31

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to rombsix)

1)
Contact the builder.

2) Echi is hopefully right. But it is a critical point of the guitar. The heel and the foot takes up the string tension and the failing gluejoint could extend into the inside of the guitar heel/foot.

I dont want to blow up anything and so i hope other builders will join in.

BUT, In my opinion, it doesnt look like a humidity issue but a problem in construction and you kind of point it out yourself by calling your dropbox page "JdZ-Unglued".
It looks to me that ... the heel has seperated because of a bad gluejoint.
A good gluejoint should be stronger than the wood and if something was to crack, it would not be in the joint.

Besides that, Cedar (cedrella) is a very staple wood that changes little when humidity changes and your guitar would normally crack somewhere else before (read soundboard)

Another thing is that 25% Rh is to low for your guitar. So find a cabinet or whatever put yur guitar in its case AND the humidifier in there.

I hope this helps

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2017 7:43:06

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to rombsix)

I thought exactly the same thing Anders.

Check for other signs of drying if its that bad. Is the doming on the back starting to look a little depressed. The back bars will start to appear with the wood in between them slightly hollowing out. Another marker is the frets sticking out.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2017 8:15:18

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to rombsix)

Just one more thing. detune the guitar so that there´s less stress in the area that has startened to open up.
And find a way to humidify the poor bastard.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2017 10:42:55

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to rombsix)

Ouch sorry Ramz, we use cedar for fence boards because of its stability. I think cracks in the body are more common for humidity issues. I have one I kept hanging kind of near a window and the whole back cracked.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2017 13:29:14

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to Stephen Eden)

I agree with Anders and Stephen. Not a humidity issue.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2017 14:27:20

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I always thought the heel is a single piece carved out with the neck. Is it typical to have a multi layered stacked heel piece like that?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2017 17:22:49

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

I always thought the heel is a single piece carved out with the neck. Is it typical to have a multi layered stacked heel piece like that?

I'm no luthier and out of my jurisdiction but all the guitars I've ever seen have stacked wood. Some just one block glued to the neck, though often a few pieces together.

Ricardo you haven't been paying attention in class

- EDIT Sorry I think I misunderstood you. Anders has one block added to the neck but many others have a few pieces stacked up.

check Anders thread 1/2 way down first page.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=209908&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=build%2Cthread

1/2 way down Stephen's thread, there's a picture of a few blocks being glued. Scroll further down to the heel carving pictures, by then it looks like it is one piece of wood.
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=261713&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=build%2Cthread&tmode=&smode=&s=#261740

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2017 18:11:49

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

we use cedar for fence boards because of its stability.

Western Red Cedar which is what you're likely referring to is actually a cypress. It makes really good guitars as well. I hate seeing it used for fencing, shakes, decking, etc. much better to use the concrete or plastic substitutes.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2017 18:23:16

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

Ricardo you haven't been paying attention in class- check Anders thread 1/2 way down first page.

Looks like that Anders' guitar is a single block of cedar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2017 18:25:48

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

Ricardo you haven't been paying attention in class- check Anders thread 1/2 way down first page.

Looks like that Anders' guitar is a single block of cedar.

Yes, Anders has two pieces stacked, the neck and heel aren't made from one piece. I think I misunderstood Ricardo.

I should remember to be quiet in the luthiers' area instead of shooting my mouth off.

I'll leave it to the luthiers to say what is typical. Though often I have seen a few pieces stacked up like Stephen's.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2017 18:30:27

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

Western Red Cedar which is what you're likely referring to is actually a cypress. It makes really good guitars as well. I hate seeing it used for fencing, shakes, decking, etc. much better to use the concrete or plastic substitutes.

Ah yes you're right. Yeah composites last way longer and hold up better but clients always "must have real wood".....

quote:

I should remember to be quiet in the luthiers' area instead of shooting my mouth off.

Me too.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2017 19:04:49

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to rombsix)

I´ve never seen a Spanish guitar with the neck and heel in one piece.
Its perfectly ok to stack pieces of cedar and make the heel out of 2 pieces. Some even say it is stronger because each piece can have different grain direction and so prevent a heel from having a long crack (plywood principle)

BUT if doing a stacked heel, its very important to make a good wood preparation so that the joint will have full strength. If not... look at Ramzis pictures.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2017 21:30:22

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1676
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to rombsix)

I also agree with Anders, Ramzi: bad glue joint.

However, this is the season (in the USA) for cracks due to insufficient humidity. It's cold outside and having the heat on inside dries out the house. Two days ago I had someone bring me a Robert Ruck classical guitar with a crack that just appeared.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2017 22:41:58

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to rombsix)

Here is the tool to fix it. A glue pushing instrument made from stainless steel tubing.

You take a section of tubing, it must be stainless if you use metal, and flatten the end. Use a metal file to sharpen the end to get it out of the way so you can see where you are applying glue. Make a pump of some kind out of a small plastic vessel you can incorporate as a squeeze bottle for the glue.

The wide flat end of the tube obviously helps get right to the mouth of the seam and pumps in glue in a flat stream where it is best flowed into the seam. A few leaks or even hard blasts of glue will do it. All conditions take glue a little differently.

Fill the glue applicator with hot hide glue with the viscosity thinned out to where is can pump through the tube. Set it in your water bath to keep it hot until you need it.

Preparing the joint to reglue needs some experience, but generally heating the heel of the guitar with a 60 watt bulb placed 18" away for 30 to 40 minutes will warm the whole heel through and through. It will also expand the joint a tiny bit.

Make sure the joint is clampable- in other words set up cork lined pads to buffer the faces of the guitar from clamps and use them when you do a 'dry run' with the clamps. A cork lined pad-caul for the fingerboard and one for the heel cap. Usually one clamp will close a seam like this. I recommend a 12" Pony clamp" or other similar clamp. Look up Pony clamp, inexpensive at the local hardware store.

If satisfied your guitar is protected and the clamping draws the seam closed move on to gluing.

Two schools of thought on this one is to flow warm water into the seam to make the glue 'wick in' after it - sometimes a useful technique, but it runs the risk of swelling the seam shut before you get glue in there. Better to make a weak glue solution and use it it flow into the seam. You make be able to also put slight pressure on the neck and get the seam to open a tiny bit more.

Getting the glue in the seam can go fast or it can go slow - again experience with the condition of the seam and how to treat it is important. It could go two or more ways - one way is you squirt hot glue in the seam and it splooges out the sides and bottom of the seam and flows back out the top of the seam. That is really good. Slap the seam shut, clamp it up, check alignment and clean up the out side with a damp cloth.

If the glue does not just gush in and flow all over in the seam you may have to nurse the glue in there little by little with mechanical action. If you pump some liquid glue in there you might have to also pump the seam open and closed a few times to get the glue to pressure squeeze down into the deeper part of the seam. You can do this a couple times adding more glue between manipulations of the seam. Rather quickly the seam may become swollen and not be open enough to get the glue in there. You ave to make a judgment call on whether you pushed enough glue in there. The important thing is to have the heel mass pre heated so the glue in the seam stays warm longer.

You also have to determine of observe that there can be glue in the seam already and the reason is did not make a great joint in the fort place is because the joint got too cold before clamping. That condition mixed with a bit of low humidity will open a seam. No big deal, warming the heel mass, adding new thinned glue and clamping for one day will usually fix this issue for life.

These things happen. Wood is wood and makers are human, and players need heated rooms. And fat bottom girls still make the rocking world go round.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2017 2:43:25

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to rombsix)

Nice description and I´m sure it will work a charm if you can control all the multitasking. Luthiers need more than 2 arms and hands.

Keep that steel tube hot or the hide glue will get to cold and gelly before entering the joint.

Personally I would use a 12mm wide flat artist brush (cheap, stiff pigs hair), make sure the heel is as hot as the lacquer/shellack can take and work the Hot Hide Glue into the joint. As all semi-old men, mutitasking is not my strongest point. I would also do all the squeezing and pumping that Stephen descibes and clamp as soon as I had the feeling everything was filled up.
And keep that fatbottom babe out of sight. No distractions, please.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2017 7:40:35

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to rombsix)

Using a stacked heel is pretty normal. It works particularly well with stock 900mm or longer so you can get the neck and zoque from the same length of wood. This way the heel is the exact same colour as the neck. It is of course possible to get that with a single block too but I think it's a little harder to find the exact same piece of wood.

I think the probable cause of this joint failure is how the layers were prepared prior to gluing. It's really easy when using a plane slightly cup the wood. When looking at the sides it looks like a perfect join but in the middle there is a slight gap, therefor a slightly weaker join. You can see this might be the case from the more prominent glue line around the base of the heel.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2017 9:50:53

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to rombsix)

Multitasking? You do all those steps anyway to set up gluing a seam.

Brushes are good too of course. I've even shaved hair out of brushes to make them more tapered and thinner to get into cracks. Small palette knives can be useful too.

When I plane a heel stack I check each piece, both sides, with a mechanics straight edge, then go back and make sure it's perfect flat.
But even a perfectly planed joint can open if the glue was too cold before the clamps go on it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2017 11:17:16

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1676
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to estebanana)

Are we sure the original joint was made with hide glue?

I use Original Titebond for most things. When I need to force glue into a narrow opening I sometimes spread some glue on a slip of waxed paper and slide that into the opening, then pull it out. If excess glue is applied, then clamping pressure will spread it all around. This requires fewer than four arms, fewer words to describe, and no pump.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2017 12:49:30

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to rombsix)

Haha Ethan, I am a Titebond fan to! I hope this doesn't start a glue debate though.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2017 13:03:15

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1676
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

I hope this doesn't start a glue debate though.

OMG, I never think of those dangers.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2017 13:07:26

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to rombsix)

Tit bond? never heard if it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2017 13:22:10

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to rombsix)

I use Titebond on places like building heels etc. On a lot of inbox work, I use Hot Hide Glue.
On violins I only use Hot Hide Glue. I´m a glue-religious.

I will remember this Titebond on waxed paper thing. Always good to have a lot of ideas.

Once IKEA had some really cheap and good stiff longhaired natural hair artist brushes that were perfect for the kind of trimming that Stephen describes. Now they have changed to sythetic hairs....... Ohhhh, the world will never be the same.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2017 16:45:15

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to rombsix)

Debating hide glue vs. Titebond is like debating Mac vs. PC, it never ends.

I have both glues in my shop, but 80% of repair work is done with hide glue. I've observed shops that do less repair work and more fast production work usually favor Titebond.

If a maker where to switch their practice from mostly production to almost all repair it would become evident that a reevaluation of hide glue function would be in order, there are some repair conditions where Titebond is not the correct material.

People who do graphic design, music and web design work favor Mac, people who run parts warehouses favor PC.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2017 0:38:02

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to rombsix)

I favor PC because its a LOT cheaper.

I agree with the repair thing about HHG.
But I hate gluing a guitar back with HHG. I find it to be so stressy and I dont really see any advantages.

(so here the glue discussion continues)

I wonder what happened to Ramzi (poster of thread) Maybe he could get us back on track.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2017 7:45:46

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

People who do graphic design, music and web design work favor Mac, people who run parts warehouses favor PC.

As do film makers/editors (Final Cut Pro) and photographers (Lightroom). The vast majority of software developers use a MacBook Pro (like me). It's based on a flavour of Unix, it's needed to develop for iPhone, iPad and Android and run Windows on a dual boot. It supports all the major server technologies. It's less powerful and more expensive than a PC, less upgradeable but is a well respected tool of the trade.

Warehouses are managed on anything that supports a web browser and a printer. I use to program such a system on Linux servers.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2017 8:33:45

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to rombsix)

I have a small and inexpensive PC laptop now, which is why I am frustrated with posting and making good video with good sound. Eventually I'll return to using MacBookPro when I can afford one.

Yeah, I have been known to the the back on with Titebond, but I have even glued the back on with hide glue after the back braces are already attached to the guitar. I like the thrill of it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2017 13:00:16

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to rombsix)

Going to take the guitar to be examined and hopefully repaired by my good luthier friend, John Vergara, who apparently is only 1.5 hours driving away from me.

http://www.johnvergaramusic.com/

He is the Lord of the Strings, you know.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2017 15:35:24

johnguitar

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006

RE: Another victim of dry weather... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Ethan, are you saying that if it was titebond you can re-glue it and it will hold? I never use the stuff but I was always told that you can't re-glue if there is old PVA glue in the joint.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2017 23:25:31