RE: deep tuned guitars

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estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: deep tuned guitars (in reply to RobJe)

quote:

quote:

getting up to A is asking for trouble

Just a bit of data - I have a 2003 Conde A26, 650 mm scale, FP with A air resonance.

Seems to work OK.

Rob

No one says it can't be done, but aiming for A is probably not a target for flamenco makers. Bouchet maybe.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2017 14:17:11

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: deep tuned guitars (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

No one says it can't be done, but aiming for A is probably not a target for flamenco makers. Bouchet maybe.

I am not qualified to speculate about what is best for a flamenco guitar. I was just intrigued to find that I have one guitar at odds with accepted norms. I wonder if this is common for A26 guitars and whether it is anything to do with the thick tops.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2017 14:41:03

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: deep tuned guitars (in reply to estebanana)

Estebanana
Your explanation on cheking top resonance is good. But its with the bridge on.
Do you have any ways of doing the same thing without the bridge on. (assembled guitar)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2017 7:51:30

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: deep tuned guitars (in reply to estebanana)

Just do the same thing with the guitar assembled without bridge. Since you are a mature builder your design is consistent, tap without bridge and record your observations. Tap after bridge glue on and see how it changed. I wager the main mode will drop a bit, maybe a half step. ?? If you try it let me know what happens.

I always get a kick out of doing this before and after binding. The cutting of the binding channel makes all the pitches drop significantly, when you glue in the binding and wrap it tight with cord or tape the dried binding is a brace around the rim. The pitches come back up after binding. I know you understand the subtle changes that where and how deep you cut the binding channel can make. That is one of those elements of the listening process that only builders experience in the shop.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2017 12:32:25

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: deep tuned guitars (in reply to estebanana)

Thank you
I will try what you say very soon and report back

I know this with the bindings. Basically its so that I dont like how the guitar case sounds before having glued the bindings. Not even before routing the channel. The bindings are very important in how a guitar works. The whole sound comes together and definition is a lot better.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2017 12:56:36

Kuruhead

Posts: 11
Joined: Jun. 10 2015

RE: deep tuned guitars (in reply to estebanana)

I wish I could find a guitar that retained the flamenco character, but still had big meaty flesh golpe tones like a baglama.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2017 20:57:33

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: deep tuned guitars (in reply to Echi)

quote:

G# is quite common for the Conde guitars of those years. I presume that your guitar is particularly stiff if it reaches A. A friend of mine has a 2003 Conde Pitched at G. You have also low pitched air Condes, am I right? How would you compare the sound of the two?

I was just re-reading this thread and spotted that you asked a question that I didn’t answer. My apologies. Yes I do have another Conde - 1965 media luna blanca which has air resonance of G. It is a more traditional guitar and one of my favourites. It can be played soft or loud without losing the quality of sound. It can hold its own in the confines of a bedroom or in a noisy bar or club.

The 2003 A26 is a completely different guitar. It is the easiest guitar to play with extremely good balance across the strings. The "colour" of the sound is less appealing to me than most other good guitars I have owned but it is the best behaved one behind a microphone. I recorded something for a multitrack work (not flamenco) some years ago and I took 3 guitars to the studio. After much discussion between guys in headphones the A26 won hands down.

I have encountered a few guitars that span both worlds, but not many.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2017 13:41:39

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: deep tuned guitars (in reply to estebanana)

Thanks.
At the moment I have a '64 Conde negra (with box air tuned at G) and more recent 80 blanca pitched at F#.
The latter is the best Conde I have had and it is a guitar with a more loosen top and with a dark bite.
I suppose the low pitch air is mainly caused by a large plantilla, a thin, flat top and a walnut bridge. The bracing is seven struts plus 2 closing bars, like in Paco's guitar.
In my experience the Condes (or some Condes) of that period can be like that, with that sound which I listen in Gerardo Nunez albums.
For some reasons Felipe and Mariano evolved the design by stiffening the top (particularly in the area close to the soundhole) with the result of a more compressed sound and more volume.
As you noticed a compressed sound could be better miked but could also offer less dynamics.
Imho my Manzanero is a very good compromise between a compressed sound in the style of the late Condes and a wide dynamic range of older style guitars.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2017 9:04:36