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Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniards Playing Flamenco Guitar (August 1982 Interview by Paul Magnussen
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniards Pl...
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Today, while researching films in which Sabicas played guitar as part of the score, I ran across an interview conducted in August 1982 by our very own Paul Magnussen with Sabicas. One question Paul asked that comes up time and again on the Foro was whether or not non-Spaniards (not to mention non-Gitanos) can aspire to playing flamenco guitar well. Sabicas's answer is instructive, and I have reproduced it here. According to Sabicas, the answer is yes, non-Spaniards can aspire to playing well, but as I read his answer, it takes more than hours of practice and the occasional playing for dancers. I don't know if Sabicas was referring to playing well at the professional level or if he just meant playing well as a non-professional, but here it is.
PAUL: What advice would you give to young guitarists? Can a non-Spaniard hope to play flamenco well?
SABICAS: Of course. But flamenco is one hundred per cent atmosphere, and if you are alone without the atmosphere, you won't get anywhere. You must mix every day with people that sing, dance or play. Atmosphere is everything, that's how you get there. If you don't do that, you'll have a lot of technique (muchos dedos) but you won't know how to use it.
Paul, I hope you will forgive my use of part of your interview, but I thought it would contribute to the mix when discussing how best to achieve a high level of playing flamenco guitar.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jan. 14 2017 17:14:35
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniard... (in reply to Leñador)
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quote:
Playing and dancing can be pulled off by foreigners of course but I've really never heard cante pulled off 100% by a foreigner.
Are you suggesting that playing can be pulled off by foreigners 100 percent? According to Sabicas: "Of course. But flamenco is one hundred per cent atmosphere, and if you are alone without the atmosphere, you won't get anywhere. You must mix every day with people that sing, dance or play. Atmosphere is everything, that's how you get there. If you don't do that, you'll have a lot of technique (muchos dedos) but you won't know how to use it."
It seems to me that Sabicas is saying that a non-Spaniard must live and breathe the flamenco "atmosphere" at all times and every day in order to pull it off 100 percent. Otherwise, as he states, you can be technically very proficient, but you will not be a real "flamenco." There is a lot more to playing flamenco than technical ability.
One can agree or disagree with Sabicas on this issue, but if you agree with him, I would say there are very few foreigners who can pull off playing flamenco really well. Most do not have the luxury of living the flamenco life completely and becoming absorbed in it, as Sabicas suggests is necessary. Intuitively, I tend to agree with him. I do think, however, that technical proficiency can carry one a long way because most audiences in the U.S. and Europe are impressed with technical ability alone and probably are incapable of making the subtle distinction Sabicas is making.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jan. 15 2017 2:24:12
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniard... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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It's almost impossible to come to any conclusions on this matter. As Sabicas said, "atmosphere is everything" and part of that flamenco atmosphere is that there is always someone to say that any given artist, foreign or not, is not a "real flamenco" on whatever account: on the account that, although born 'n bred flamenco, you've been spending too much time in New York, on the account that your singing is too different from previous singers, on the account that it's too similar to previous singers, on the account that you don't really like bullfighting, on the account that your Asian *ss isn't big enough to be a flamenco dancer (yes...I've really heard that one before...) or even just on the account that you don't smoke (!).
And since having people say you're not a real flamenco is part of being a flamenco...well, it gets really hard to come to any conclusions! I don't know if "playing can be pulled off by foreigners 100 percent" or not, but in a way I find it irrelevant. If local flamenco artists are calling on you to perform with them, then you're as flamenco as it gets as far as I'm concerned.
Agreed with Lenador though that cante seems to be particularly difficult to acquire for a foreigner.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Jan. 15 2017 3:14:21
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniard... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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These generalizing statements are of course valid, so long as you take them as generalized. That means in "most cases". There are always going to be exceptions when you start looking at specific data. At the end of the day, it is quite fair to say that any foreign guitarist that does a good enough job to "fool" the ear of a Flamenco artist into believing he or she IS a spanish born artist, or even be surprised that he or she is NOT one, has a DARN good reason behind it. It might be due to Sabicas' assertion, or perhaps something else entirely. The reason I say this is because if you take the idea, at face value, that it's only about "time spent amongst the gitanos in Spain", then every back packing hippie that tried this romantic idea should be a maestro, and it certainly is not the case. Nor does this come down to DNA, as we have seen not every family member has what it takes.
The things that even Sabicas is looking for in a guitarist are based on certain fine tuned details, and if you could figure those out precisely, he or anyone else in the know could be "fooled". IMO.
The true important thing about all this is how much does one need to "imitate" vs be unique in order to be considered "authentic" and truly an artist.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Jan. 15 2017 17:39:47
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniard... (in reply to etta)
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quote:
The greatest five string banjo player in the world is not a white, rural, protestant, from the hills or Tennessee or Kentucky. He is Bela Fleck, a Jewish guy from New York who fell in love with the sounds of a banjo. I wonder that he did not fall in love with the flamenco guitar.
That Bela Fleck is a technical virtuoso on the banjo is undeniable. That he is "the greatest five string banjo player in the world" is a matter of opinion. Several rankings of banjo players list Earl Scruggs as the greatest five string banjo player ever. One listed Earl Scruggs first, Ralph Stanley (another blue grass banjo player) second, and Bela Fleck third. In 2015, Acoustic Magazine listed Earl Scruggs as first with Bela Fleck listed in fifth place.
I imagine that Earl Scruggs and others listed ahead of Bela Fleck in these rankings were so-ranked because they possessed more than technical virtuosity. They brought to the banjo the musical traditions of their culture, something that Bela Fleck, as "a Jewish guy from New York," lacked. I think this is what Sabicas was driving at in his interview regarding what it takes for a non-Spaniard to really play flamenco well, beyond technical proficiency, i.e., to envelope himself in the flamenco culture of toque, cante, and baile.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jan. 15 2017 18:13:38
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Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniard... (in reply to Piwin)
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My good friend and bandmate was a member of the San Francisco Symphony for a time. He also played in other orchestras in various countries. When he prepared for his audition for the SF gig, he worked for months. He played for other pro violinists in order to hear their input, etc. Really worked hard. When he reached a certain stage of the audition process, it was done in a blind audition, but he confided, they knew exactly who was who.
Sabicas, I tend to agree with him, but as Ricardo pointed out, there are exceptions, and I believe even Spanish pros can be fooled into thinking a player is Spanish. But I think that is a rare case. Despite the commonly expressed belief that it's not all about technique, that is what the difference is in most cases IMO. Very few foreign born players have the technique at a level that is common among pros in Spain. There are some, including some that post on this site, that do have it. But the vast majority of guitarists gigging in the US at least, have a ways to go if they expect to be considered on the same level by those who have listened to a lot of flamenco.
As far as original vs. imitate, every guitarist who ever spent any time playing for dance has had to create falsetas to fit the dance. If that is what is required to be an "artist" there are a lot of them everywhere. I'm not sure what the definition of an artist is, but writing a few falsetas, or solos for that matter, seems to be a low bar.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
quote:
The true important thing about all this is how much does one need to "imitate" vs be unique in order to be considered "authentic" and truly an artist.
So true. I get the impression that the difference for a foreigner is that you're expected to be more conservative, to imitate more than a Spaniard would have to in order to be considered "authentic". If you're a Spanish gipsy, throw on a bunch of A-strings and play in weird tunings and you might get some praise. Do the same thing as a foreigner and I doubt you'd get the same reaction. I can just hear the fat ol' dude at the bar pontificating on "flamenconfusion"...gah.
Someone needs to do a test with screens, like orchestras do nowadays to recruit new players without any kind of bias, to see whether flamencos can actually tell the difference or not.
@ToddK
New idea for a band name: Kenny G and the Kentones. 
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Date Jan. 16 2017 15:53:50
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniard... (in reply to Leñador)
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quote:
I had assumed (and could easily be wrong) what he meant by it was you need to have an understanding of the whole of flamenco. The cante, the song, and peoples emotional connection to particular songs and what inspires people to sing and play them. A perfect context of everything you're playing. Through that you're playing could stop being sterile. Or something to that affect.....
You may be right, Lenny, in that the very understanding and feeling that comes with the "whole"--toque, cante, baile, and the resulting context of emotional connection and inspiration in which it all occurs--leads to playing with "aire," rather than with just sterile technical proficiency.
We probably shouldn't overthink this thing, but I do think we are coming close to what Sabicas was driving at.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jan. 16 2017 19:06:28
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniard... (in reply to Leñador)
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I think the "flamenco atmosphere" is a moving target.
Spain is a very different country now than when I first visited in the late 1950s-early 1960s, and it was a very different country then than it had been a decade before.
Even though the late 1940s were a decade past the end of the Civil War, Spain was still backward, isolated and very poor. For example, neither washing machines nor sewing machines were produced in the country. To get one it had to be imported, and they were well beyond the economic reach of the great majority of the population.
In rural Andalucian towns and villages few houses had running water. Large numbers of people were literally starving.
In the late 1940s-early 1950s Franco opened the borders to foreign tourists. He accepted a loan from the IMF, which led to control of the economy being taken from the hands of veteran Fascists and given to more skilled administrators. Waves of money began to wash across the country. Still the general population profited very little. As usual, the rich got richer, while the poor still suffered. But at least there were new, slightly better paying jobs building the apartment complexes in the cities and the beginnings of the "Great Wall of Andalucia" along the Costa del Sol, and tending bar or waiting on tables for the foreigners.
By the time I first visited, tourism was fairly well established. There were good hotels, bars and tablaos in major cities. The flamenco artists of that era--Caracol, Mairena, Niño Ricardo, Rafael Romero, Perico el del Lunar, Aurelio Selles, Pericon de Cadiz, etc.--were experiencing unparalleled prosperity, but they had been shaped by, and vividly remembered the horrors of the Civil War, the years of starvation in the aftermath, and the repression of the gitanos by the Fascists.
Sabicas was born in Pamplona, one of the least "flamenco" cities in Spain, and lived there until he was brought to Madrid by his father somewhere around age 10. His early toque was mostly stuff he had copped from Ramon Montoya records. He was certainly immersed in the professional "flamenco atmosphere" of Madrid at an early age. He left left Spain at age 24 with Carmen Amaya's troupe in the first year of the Civil War, and prospered mightily during their long run in Buenos Aires. Amaya's family, fearing his potential influence over their meal ticket as her lover, forced him out of her entourage. He lived in Mexico for several years, then moved to New York City some time in the 1950s. Amaya went on to world wide stardom and Hollywood.
There were flamenco "scenes" both in Mexico and in New York. Manolo Caracol had a night club in Mexico City that featured a stream of Spanish artists, as did the club Zambra in New York. There was a sizable Spanish expatriate communty in Mexico City, who had fled Franco. But the ones I met were hardly flamencos. They were small business men and professionals, who could afford the ocean liner tickets to take their families out of Spain. Still I suppose one could say that Sabicas spent a fair amount of his time immersed in a flamenco atmosphere. But in New York at least, he put in a good deal of time at the poker tables, where he made significant amounts of money in the big games. He also began a sequence of recordings that brought him recognition and money.
Meanwhile in Spain the flamenco atmosphere was still evolving. The gitanos were largely pushed out of Triana by rising real estate prices and rents. In Madrid one flamenco scene was centered in Caño Roto. The same was true of lower income polígonos on the outskirts of other large cities. The gitanos were concentrated there more by cultural prejudice than by official repression.
When I was in Madrid in 1985 I took the daughter of one of my best American friends out to dinner. She was at university in Madrid. We went first to a bar, which was then in Arco de Cuchilleros. Upstairs a couple of dozen people sat around a big table, others at smaller tables or the bar. A guitar was passed around, and people sang--some flamenco, some folk songs. The crowd was mainly university students and others of that age. Then we ate at Botín next door. (That was before it was completely overrun by tourists). Over dinner she casually mentioned that during the preceding week a policeman in Madrid had been killed by gitanos in retribution for arresting a relative. The perpetrators were still at large. She was puzzled by my astonished reaction.
I explained that when I first visited Spain, if a gitano had killed a policeman, the Guardia Civil would have turned out and killed the first two dozen gitanos they met, whether or not they had even the remotest connection with killing the policeman.
My dinner guest was amazed. But she was soon distracted by the tuna of a local university, who spent a little longer than average at our table, serenading my companion, a 19-year old blue eyed strawberry blonde who spoke to them in fluent Spanish.
It seems to me that perhaps some of flamenco culture may still spring from the cultural and economic repression of a class of people, but the last time I saw Tomatito's "big show" there didn't seem to be the same connection to that as there was with Pericon et al, or even Niño Ricardo.
This is not to say there is no "flamenco atmosphere." Just that it has changed and evolved greatly, even during Sabicas's lifetime. When his disc "Flamenco Puro" came out in Spain, it had a revolutionary impact among the tocaores, including Paco. Sabicas's toque had evolved along a different line than had prevailed in Spain.
RNJ
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Date Jan. 16 2017 20:54:16
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pundi64
Posts: 234
Joined: Jul. 29 2016
From: Thailand
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RE: Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniard... (in reply to Cervantes)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cervantes
quote:
ORIGINAL: pundi64
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cervantes
quote:
Wipeout Beach Flamenco Guitar La Jolla
Good stuff. I live not far from there. Too bad David passed in 2002 well before I started Flamenco guitar. There are only a few teachers here even though its a big city I live in.
I agree unless I travel to Spain I won't get as far as I could.
Yes he was a Wind-an-Sea local both him and his brother Richard (aka Tweek).
Someone else to keep an eye out for around the San Diego area, is another very good friend of mine Paul Runyan, not sure if he teaches, but does gigs around the area. Known him also since we were kids.
Dan T.
My wife grew up in La Jolla and my MIL still lives there.
I haven't heard of Paul Runyan, did a google search and came up with nothing.
I am pretty happy with my teacher here Scot Tabor.
Another name that comes up a lot is John Moore AKA Juan Moro.
He plays at a local Spanish restaurant, I plan to see him play there soon.
I did go to another Spanish place here called Sevilla and saw a show. The guitar was ok but the sound was very bad, the cante was kind of boring but the three dancers were quite good and entertaining.
Ya you wouldn't find too much on Paul, he is very low tech with the Internet , plus he is sort of a recluse when it comes to being known. The guy who put the video in YouTube, a Jim Weaver, is very good friends with Paul, he might have info on him
and you let him know you know me, Dan Talboy now living in Thailand.
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Date Jan. 16 2017 21:30:37
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