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RE: surface
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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 RE: surface (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
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quote:
Well, Amigo, you are known for your mood swings so I get confused when you say this isn't one
Tom, I don't have mood swings, what I have are editorial perspectives, if I'm not doing well I usually stay off the internet. If my opinions seem to be more positive one day and more kooky on another day it is because I'm changing the way I edit myself while writing online or changing voice to a formal voice which is different than my every day 'cusses like a drunk sailor' voice.
I don't have mood swings any more or less than any one else who has a pulse. What I do have to deal with is culture shock from living in a culture that is not my own...that is often difficult. So depending on the day I decide to be formal and not swear online or to be informal and use cuss words.
I probably say the 'F-word" in daily life much more than you. Recent studies have shown that folks who swear a lot have integrity and intelligence. I feel vindicated by these studies and they have really just encouraged me to swear more and often. Dammit.
And I want to say this gently, voicing an opinion that is reasoned out about politics is not a mood swing. That is a dangerous thing to equate with politics because it diminishes the voice of the person speaking. Rants can be entertaining as well as annoying, but online it's hard to tell the difference occasionally.
Guitar talk is all nice, but we live in a time now where not speaking up becomes for some of us a form of complicity. From your position you may not feel like being silent on certain topics is a complicit act, but from mine it can be. So please don't confuse or ascribe my commenting out on a subject as a mood swing. I'm pretty aware of how I edit my remarks and what effect I want the editing to have. The self editing is not out of my control, on the contrary, I use it to give emphasis to things I want to say. And the "crazy cussing voice" I use is as much a kind of act via editing as it is part of my personal craziness.
I would be bored to speak in the same formal mode all the time, so I mix it up. I think that is just human.
____________________________________
I've said pretty much all I want say about surface-
Color is personal for all of us, I have a color sense that veers toward golds and honey browns and more subtle tones of naturally oxidized woods.
I'm having a long running probably played out joke with Ricardo about his color choices....I have worked on many 'orange' Condes and respect them on the bench as any other guitar.
And that guitar makers have choices over how much of the process of design they allow the customer to participate in; that is a personal choice that is not really to be judged because each maker deserves to be respected on his or her individual thresholds for how much they include the customer in the design after the customers needs are met. It's personal venture between maker and client. In actual work, I go pretty far down that path with the client.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jan. 26 2017 22:21:06
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: surface (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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More on colors. As you no doubt know, human color perception is mediated by three different sets of cells in the eye's retina. Each of the three sets is sensitive to a limited range of the visible spectrum. The sets are often named red, green and blue for colors where their sensitivity peaks.
As a result, the perception of effectively the whole range of colors can be invoked by stimulating the retina with mixtures of these three "primary" colors, in appropriate intensities.
Digital cameras mimic the action of the retina. Each pixel in a digital image is a combination of red, green and blue sub-pixels. This long winded harangue is prologue to the following pictures.
The first is a small patch from the photo of the Ramirez, on the treble side of the lower bout of the top.
Next is a histogram of this patch. The histogram displays the brightness of each primary color on the horizontal axis. The further to the right a point is, the brighter the color. The vertical axis shows how many pixels have that color and that brightness. The three vertical clumps in the first histogram represent blue, green and red, reading left to right.
The third figure is the histogram for the red channel. Since the patch is about the same color overall, you would expect each primary color to be about the same brightness for every pixel. That's what the vertical clumps show. (The histogram of the full photo, with all the varied hues of the rug in the background, shows a fair amount of overlap of the intensities of the primary colors.) The histogram also shows that red is by far the strongest primary color in the "oro viejo" color. I guess that's why I called it "orange."
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
 Attachment (3)
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Date Jan. 27 2017 20:46:01
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: surface (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
It's odd you know that cameras work differently than our eyes, and color mixing is different optically outside our bodies than it is inside. Speaking of "primary" color. Green is a secondary color in hue, but in our color receptors a mixer. Light is a tricky sucker.
I don't understand this. I'm not questioning it--just saying I don't understand. Could you expand a bit, or maybe give me a more detailed reference? I'd be glad to learn more about it.
I will say that I know that cameras don't work like our visual system. After the cone cells respond to colors within their bandwidth, there is another layer that combines responses from the cone cells in what is sometimes called the opponent process. These are just the first two steps in a layered process.
What I'm claiming about cameras is that this whole perceptive process can be triggered by the "red," "green," and "blue" subpixels of an electronic display to produce the perceptions of a very wide gamut of colors.
But I'll add this anecdote:
The first time I went to the Musee d'Orsay in Paris, I saw Van Gogh's painting of his bedroom at the asylum. I had seen reproductions of it since I was ten years old, but I was amazed when I saw the real thing. I had never seen colors like that before. I immediately went downstairs to the shop and asked for the very best reproduction they had, price no object.
The efficient and accommodating sales clerk, without hesitating, placed on the counter a nearly full sized print by one of the most prestigious art presses. I responded almost instantly by shaking my head. The colors weren't there.
Without a word being spoken, the clerk picked up the print and returned it to the shelf. She came back to the counter and said, "I am sorry monsieur, but that one is the best."
RNJ
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Date Jan. 28 2017 21:17:31
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: surface (in reply to constructordeguitarras)
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Richard,
I'm just referring to Newtons charting out of light spectrum and how that is the basis of color science. Newton's book 'Optics' was a big start.
Light, you already know this, travels through materials, like the sea, formica, wood, varnish, leaves, all the thiings around us, the reflects back out of those materials. The world around us acts as a filter for the light, light passes though a material and is reflected back out, the amount of light entering and reflecting back out is called the Refractive Index. More transparent materials like thin leaves and varnish films have high refractive indexes, they allow more light in and out, a black fire charred surface of a burned house has low refractive index, not a lot of light escapes or is reflected back out.
Our eyes are sensitive to the frequencies of light that a particular materials refractive index allows to bounce out of it. Then the eyes,or brain takes that information and "develops" it on a screen in our brain.
It's just amazing. When we are talking about color on guitars, we are talking about manipulating a very small portion of that spectrum, and all the implications it comes with. Over time the substrate for the varnish will oxydize and become darker, thus effecting the refractive index. That is how you arrive at those mellow "old gold" colors.
However color mixing outside the body to get these refracted perceptions to our brain involves following a method of color mixing that is scientific Color Theory is based on three primary colors, three secondaries and third colors between the second colors and primary colors. The primary colors are Red, Blue, Yellow, secondaries are Orange, Green , Purple, and the tertiary colors.
The tertiary color that lies between Red and Yellow is Vermilion and Amber- Vermillion is between Orange and Red- Amber is between Orange and Yellow.
The hues we associate with Conde's or guitars in general fall into a space between Orange and Amber, but complex tinting with other colors may be present to moderate the saturation and chroma intensity, or tone it down. But generally the Conde' spectrum is the edge of Vermilion as it goes to orange and then the other side of Orange as it goes to Amber.
The weird ting is there's all kinds of ways to do that, but the most simple direct ways are often the least interesting. The allure of that color on the Conde' is subject to all kinds of "flavoring" from outside that Vermilion - Orange - Amber zone. The earth colors fit into Yellow Orche, Burnt earths, Raw earths, like the Siennas, or the Naples earths, Red ochre, etc, all those colors fit into the spectrum between secondary and tertiary colors. But they fit in such a way that they are practically used to moderate refractive index in those colors to make them more subtle, to take the harsh edges off the more garish strains of vermilion in the varnish, for example.
So my solution to subtle is to not mess with the color too much an rely on oxidation of the ground, the guitar top, to darken and shift the refractive index, rather than do it ahead of time. Nature will take it's course. However if you are good and want to do it, making a varnish layer that is mixed to filter out some of the harshness is possible. And it's possible by layering different colors on the guitar. I believe the best and most intriguing Conde' colors of older Conde' were created that way. And that kind of stuff can be very pleasing, albeit pushed in a very determined way towards the hot vermilion end of the tertiary range The modifier in there is pink used to work the refractive index, but I'm not going to divulge how.
Pink? Where the hell does that does from? Pink should be a technical foul, a five yard penalty or a corner kick. Or a free throw, or a hockey player being ejected from the ice. Pink, the trickster, it comes from red being mixed with white. Yellow and white makes a weird yellow, blue and white makes a sky. But blue is powerful and multi faceted, the blue family has many members and they all have special functions in pictorial space. Not useful for guitars really, but blues are no joke, powerful. Yellow and white....not much use either, but mix yellow and black together and you get fantastic greens, add white and tints of green and you get a world of muted greens you could get lost in.
But Pink, mix white and red and the result gets it's own name. Pink. Put down a layer of pink and run amber- gold -brown-orange-red.....varnish over it and something special happens. But which pink and how is it carried? Which vehicle? How much white? Which red to begin with?
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jan. 28 2017 23:08:19
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: surface (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
The first time I went to the Musee d'Orsay in Paris, I saw Van Gogh's painting of his bedroom at the asylum. I had seen reproductions of it since I was ten years old, but I was amazed when I saw the real thing. I had never seen colors like that before. I immediately went downstairs to the shop and asked for the very best reproduction they had, price no object.
You have Pere Tanguy to thank for the intensity of Van G's colors in his painting. Tanguy was the benevolent and soft hearted paint maker that the best artists of Vincent's generation bought colors from.
It's said that when van Gogh died he owed several thousand dollars to Tanguy for extending credit for paint. The paint Pere Tanguy made was top quality, steeped in pigment, heavy and high chroma. Making paint itself is an art, how much pigment can the color grinder afford to put in the paint to make rich and intense? if you visit a high quality art store with the most expensive oil paint ask the clerk to take the paint out of the display case and heft the tubes to compare which is heaviest. Try a tube of Sennelier Yellow Ochre against a Grumbacher normal priced tube of Yellow Ochre. Or a Cerulian blue from Gamblin vs. a high end Old Holland Cerulian. The best paint is heavier, more dense, less oil and additives for drying and binding. Paint that is well made is like a fine violin, or a great flamenco guitar.
Even though the camera can catch, mostly, the intensity of the color, reprinting it takes the same amount of intensity and chroma saturation in the inks used to bring up the true color for a reproduction. The way colors are mixed in conventional printers mixes from a red -blue-green palette, and that has a greying effect on the colors printed.
Pere Tanguy worked his pigment magic, and Van Gogh was a genius to buy and use that paint. I love a a Van Gogh in person, and better yet his reed pen drawings are his best work. What he did with a reed pen and humble sepia ink is timeless.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jan. 29 2017 11:56:28
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: surface (in reply to Joan Maher)
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quote:
less is more as they say. (Mies van der Rohe)
Although I majored in history as an undergraduate, I took an architecture course for non-architecture students as an elective. Mies van der Rohe was the figure who impressed me the most, more than Walter Gropius (the Bauhaus) Eero Saarinen, Philip Johnson, and Frank Lloyd Wright. Mies was indeed on the mark--Less is more. It was then, it is now.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Feb. 1 2017 1:35:21
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