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athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

planting ima while p plucks? 
Hello technique experts!
When doing p-i-m-a or p-i-m-a-m-i arpeggios one should plant the fingers after p plucks or plant them while p plucks?
I think its better to plant ima while p plucks so you get those two movements together, but it feels a bit weird on the d-string.
Hope you understand what i mean.
Thanks in advance.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2016 20:16:14
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: planting ima while p plucks? (in reply to athrane77) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: athrane77

Hello technique experts!
When doing p-i-m-a or p-i-m-a-m-i arpeggios one should plant the fingers after p plucks or plant them while p plucks?
I think its better to plant ima while p plucks so you get those two movements together, but it feels a bit weird on the d-string.
Hope you understand what i mean.
Thanks in advance.


Planting all at once before or when the P plays is called a "FULL PLANT". Placing only i down when P plays, m down when i plays, a down when m plays etc, is called SEQUENTIAL PLANTING. It is most typical in flamenco guitar traditions to use full plant for pima sequences, and sequential plants for ami or any other combo really. Probably classical guitar as well. However, there is an argument that doing this is a crutch of sorts, not unlike dragging a finger across strings during picado, such that working on sequential planting for all and any arps is ideal. While myself and most others I have observed have always relied on the full plant for speed and fluidity, Gerardo Nuñez for one, NEVER does the full plant, or at least teaches us to not do it. A simple exercise to train sequential plant vs full plant is take a chord and do, imamimamimam etc over and over.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2016 20:56:24
 
athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: planting ima while p plucks? (in reply to athrane77) 
thanks for your reply ricardo.
My main question was if you plant before or when p plays for p-i-m-a arpeggios.
Looking forward to your reply.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2016 22:22:42
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: planting ima while p plucks? (in reply to athrane77) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: athrane77
thanks for your reply ricardo.
My main question was if you plant before or when p plays for p-i-m-a arpeggios.
Looking forward to your reply.

Looks like he answerred the question pretty straight on and added cherries on top too. Read through again, it's all there.


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2016 22:46:00
 
kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: planting ima while p plucks? (in reply to Dudnote) 
I think OP was asking about two versions of full planting rather than anything to do with sequential planting; i.e. whether full planting of ima is to be done before or during plucking with p. I don't think Ricardo addressed that.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2016 2:24:42
 
chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: planting ima while p plucks? (in reply to kitarist) 
quote:

whether full planting of ima is to be done before or during plucking with p.


Short answer -- before.

Long discussion -- what is the purpose of planting?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2016 3:47:28
 
Cervantes

 

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: planting ima while p plucks? (in reply to athrane77) 
My teacher is always on me about this planting, believe me it works.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2016 5:34:53
 
Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: planting ima while p plucks? (in reply to athrane77) 
In my case: before.
But then again, I don't use plants much. Or if I do I'm unaware of it. When I do consciously plant my fingers, it's just for the technical exercise. It does wonders to improve economy of movement in ima fingers. For me it's kind of lot staccato for picado. You practice it a lot and it has a huge effect on how you play but you don't really think "staccato" when you're actually playing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2016 6:51:10
 
athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: planting ima while p plucks? (in reply to athrane77) 
quote:

full planting of ima is to be done before or during plucking with p.

yes thanks, that was my question. And what you think what is better.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2016 9:57:07
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: planting ima while p plucks? (in reply to athrane77) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Planting all at once before or when the P plays is called a "FULL PLANT".



OK, what he didn't spell out is that if you plant after then that introduces a delay, and delays will slow you down. So the only way to go faster is to make the delay as short as possible - which in the limit means planting before or at the same time as playing p.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2016 10:35:58
 
athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: planting ima while p plucks? (in reply to athrane77) 
yes dudnote, but ricardo mentioned both. my question is, do you really do both (before or during p plays) or do you prefer one of these? and why?
I think planting during p plays could be more efficient.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2016 10:39:43
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: planting ima while p plucks? (in reply to athrane77) 
Personally, how I plant depends on context.

I do something kinda close to a full plant, a half full plant perhaps , if the ima is played in kinda one rapid ripple/wave like movement - like in solea p(E[1]-pause) imap(E[2]-pause) imap(F[3]) etc where the imap is rapid. Here I think I do plant a later than i and m, but definetly plant before m had played.

But if I switch to a more even rhythm, then I switch to sequential planting and plant each finger as its predecessor plays a note.

I also plant a finger before p plays if the finger will play a rest stroke. Then I plant the finger and p at the same time.

I never use the full plant when playing tremolo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2016 10:59:17
 
kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: planting ima while p plucks? (in reply to athrane77) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: athrane77

quote:

full planting of ima is to be done before or during plucking with p.

yes thanks, that was my question. And what you think what is better.


As for me, I don't know if I ever do full planting unless it is functionally required - meaning when I have to sound ima simultaneously. Whether full or sequential, in my case I would say any i/m/a planting happens during p's plucking, not before.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2016 18:07:17
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: planting ima while p plucks? (in reply to athrane77) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: athrane77

yes dudnote, but ricardo mentioned both. my question is, do you really do both (before or during p plays) or do you prefer one of these? and why?
I think planting during p plays could be more efficient.


It might depend on the specific passage, but honestly doing sequential planting makes this a moot issue. That's why I discussed it. Before or SAME TIME AS Pulger plays is not really making much difference. Even AFTER P plays can be fine depending on the speed and timing of the specific passage, previous notes ringing etc. There need not be a general rule or practice to this, in practice you will discover exceptions and different ways things need to be done.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2016 19:14:17
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