double top flamencos

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jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

double top flamencos

Here are a couple of photos of one of two double top flamenco guitars we're building. I'm finding this a fascinating endeavor. The top bracing is extremely light and we considered leaving it out completely but didn't have the courage. The nomex sandwich makes the top incredibly stiff. The outside cedar layers are less than 1mm thick. Working with cedar this thin is very challenging. One top is uniform thickness and the other is tapered from center to perimeter.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 25 2016 18:42:17

benros

Posts: 144
Joined: Aug. 27 2016

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

wow, that looks pretty cool! but arent you afraid of breaking through such thin cedar with any golpe? i wouldnt feel comfortable playing flamenco on such a fragile top.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 25 2016 21:04:28

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

John what are you expecting as far as a tonal change on your guitars since you build in a traditional manner normally?I have personally found that you lose some of that earthy flamenco quality and some of the beauty of nylon when incorporating modern features as such but definitely getting more response and volume. Not to say its good or bad as its a personal thing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 25 2016 21:53:01

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to benros)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benros

wow, that looks pretty cool! but arent you afraid of breaking through such thin cedar with any golpe? i wouldnt feel comfortable playing flamenco on such a fragile top.

I had the same fear but I have customers asking for double tops and don't want to lose the business. The top is not really fragile since it's supported by the nomex but the veneer is very thin. I think we'll put a slightly larger than usual golpeador on double tops to try to alleviate the problem of stray golpes.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 25 2016 22:38:53

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to tri7/5)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tri7/5

John what are you expecting as far as a tonal change on your guitars since you build in a traditional manner normally?I have personally found that you lose some of that earthy flamenco quality and some of the beauty of nylon when incorporating modern features as such but definitely getting more response and volume. Not to say its good or bad as its a personal thing.

As to tonal change, I haven't the faintest idea but am hopeful. This is a learning experience for us. My initial response to the feel of the top is that it will produce lots of sustain other than that I'm in the dark.

One needs a challenge to keep an aging brain active. I've always loved an experiment and this could be a fairly long term challenge but a lot of very good builders are using double tops so there must be something to it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 25 2016 22:43:56

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

Cool.

Balsa is the new nomex- Lots of double tops were first made with balsa than nomex and many are switching back to balsa cores. I've been contemplating a balsa top, but I'm still happy with solid wood.

The double tops I've played are really loud and out front not shy. I'm sure your will be good. Light top, stiff the right bridge, it will do something.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 25 2016 23:50:21

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Cool.

Balsa is the new nomex- Lots of double tops were first made with balsa than nomex and many are switching back to balsa cores. I've been contemplating a balsa top, but I'm still happy with solid wood.

The double tops I've played are really loud and out front not shy. I'm sure your will be good. Light top, stiff the right bridge, it will do something.

I hope you're right Stephen. I'm now thinking about a light weight carbon fiber mesh to use instead of nomex. It would be easier to glue and allow the top to be very thin and still stiff. These nomex tops are unbelievably stiff. We pre-formed them by using the solera in a vacuum press...worked like a dream.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2016 13:53:39

Tom Blackshear

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2016 18:16:46

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

John,

The reason I couldn't quite get to the idea of using Nomex for a flamenco guitar, was the constant pounding on the top, against the tap plate, which was flexible against the top wood. Can you imagine Jason playing one of these guitars. It wouldn't matter how thick the plate is when there is constant pounding on it.

Well, I suspect we're about to find out. One of the customers who wants a double top is a very powerful professional player.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2016 20:13:43

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

Can you imagine Jason playing one of these guitars. It wouldn't matter how thick the plate is when there is constant pounding on it.

Do you mean Jason McGuire?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2016 20:34:32

etta

Posts: 341
Joined: Jan. 20 2010

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

I have two Canin nomex double tops, a negra and a blanca. For the last 2-3 years they have taken lots of hard playing everyday with no structural problems. They are loud, clean, and very quick responding with good balance across all strings. The blanca is very "flamenco", dry, and muy percussive. The negra is of course a little sweeter and can go very well in both jazz and flamenco. Driven hard, they are both monsters. Jason McGuire plays the blanca (not the cutaway) very hard on U tube. The guitars seem much less affected by humidity or dryness. I take one of them each year for 2-3 months from a very humid environment to a very dry climate without any problems or significant tonal/playing changes. I would like to try a newer "balsa" by comparison.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2016 21:43:05

Tom Blackshear

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2016 21:51:39

etta

Posts: 341
Joined: Jan. 20 2010

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

Yep, that's the blanca, the nomex; it has only gotten better since Jan. 2015. I use different strings.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2016 21:55:29

Tom Blackshear

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2016 22:30:37

etta

Posts: 341
Joined: Jan. 20 2010

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

Thanks Tom; very nice guitar (E. Perelman), but maybe a little over balanced in the bass which may compromise clarity. But, it is at best problematical to objectively evaluate a guitar with a recording.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2016 23:16:26

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

In flamenco I don't think it matters that much, the loudness of a guitar, a player is still going to mic up for a show.

On the other hand many classical pros have been using double tops and then returned to solid wood guitars. Scott Tennant said his Dammann was like a Ferrari for several years then it pooped out. There are still a lot of high level makers who are not to enthusiastic about that problem.

There are also players to hate the double top sound, but mostly older classical guys who play more poetically, not aggressive flamenco players. I'm not pooping on the double top, but just tempering it with the notion that it's not a silver bullet. The ultimate problem is still eventual glue failure between a non shrinking resin glue and nomex matrix and a two skins of wood that are losing mass and losing inherent structure over a long period of time. The core materials will stay the same while the skins will change in internal structure over decades- eventually something will pop. I'm still not on board because of that.

The balsa core interests me much more as there is potential to glue that together in such way that it will not delaminate as fast. But in the end all of it is a form of plywood. I suppose is breaks down to eternal vanity vs. right now performance. Do you want your guitars to be instruments that shine with a certain shelf life, or be living two hundred years after you die? It's like the conversation in the movie Blade Runner between Roy Batty and Tyrell.

Roy Batty- "I want more life... Fu--ker."

Tyrell- "Revel in your time Roy. The star that burns half as long, burns twice as bright."

Then Roy crushes his face with one hand.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2016 23:26:57

Tom Blackshear

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2016 13:27:08

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

The ultimate problem is still eventual glue failure between a non shrinking resin glue and nomex matrix and a two skins of wood that are losing mass and losing inherent structure over a long period of time. The core materials will stay the same while the skins will change in internal structure over decades- eventually something will pop. I'm still not on board because of that.

The balsa core interests me much more as there is potential to glue that together in such way that it will not delaminate as fast. But in the end all of it is a form of plywood. I suppose is breaks down to eternal vanity vs. right now performance. Do you want your guitars to be instruments that shine with a certain shelf life, or be living two hundred years after you die? It's like the conversation in the movie Blade Runner between Roy Batty and Tyrell.

I some ways I agree with you Stephen; however as you're well aware, very few guitars last more than a few decades. Why a few of them have long lives is a mystery to me, judging by the few old ones I've played which still have some life in them it has nothing to do with thickness of the wood or for that matter quality. It's a puzzle for someone with a bigger brain than mine.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2016 14:27:53

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

I for one, don't think it's a matter of delamination.
I think the problem comes as a result of the use of cedar as a top together with the very light strutting made of cedar wood. The struts are impressively light.
My guess is that in the long term, the cedar bracing and top loose their longitudinal strength.
I saw the same happening in a couple of old Granada flamenco guitars with cedar strutting.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2016 15:34:32

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to Echi)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

I for one, don't think it's a matter of delamination.
I think the problem comes as a result of the use of cedar as a top together with the very light strutting made of cedar wood. The struts are impressively light.
My guess is that in the long term, the cedar bracing and top loose their longitudinal strength.
I saw the same happening in a couple of old Granada flamenco guitars with cedar strutting.

There are 45 year old cedar top Shelton-Farretta guitars still being played and sounding ok. I played a classic cedar top from the early 80's very recently that sounded much better than I remembered it.

We used cedar for the top wood on these double tops because the customer requested it. I was also warned not to use Engelmann spruce as the nomex tends to show through. As I stated earlier this double top is so stiff we considered leaving out the fan bracing altogether and may try that on a future one. We plan to build the next one with a sandwich of cedar and spruce primarily to save our lovely old cedar and use up a bunch of Carpathian spruce tops that I don't care for.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2016 20:28:28

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear enough in my statement.
I didn't mean that a cedar top is generally prone to collapse or stuff like that.
I meant instead that the Dammann double top is built with extremely light cedar bracing.
The Dammann top usually makes a huge wave under the tension of the strings (Dammann himself place the bridge 4 mm behind the correct position, reckoning it will move on the right place after some months).
Damman made use of two 0.6 mm cedar layers.
Such a kind of top has a limited longitudinal stiffness.

Other than that, the transverse bar and the struts of "abanico" are extremely low and scalloped, hence the tendency of the top to get worn out quite soon.

My guess is that thicker bars or spruce bars would make the top last longer.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2016 22:08:42

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

That type of top does what a lute top does, it develops the "S" curve shape front of the bridge. If that is the goal and the intention then I think it's fair to say those guitars should be expected to be retopped when the top wears out. Lute tops get replaced when they contort too far, they get sliced off and replaced.

I think guitars can last a really long time, but made with solid wood. Older guitars can be taken apart and refurbished to be be structurally sound for another 80 to a hundred years- I hope I live long enough to see a 45 year old guitar of mine. I've only been building for 18 years!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2016 23:59:34

etta

Posts: 341
Joined: Jan. 20 2010

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

In regard to guitar longevity; I have owned and played a flamenco guitar since 1959. I have never had one completely fall apart. And, the nomex double tops (I have two), speak to me with authority and accuracy and much beauty beyond any previous guitars I have owned. Yes, I could listen to guitars on a PA system, or even headphones, but I want to hear and feel their pulsations and creations of sound live and in my face; that is the essence of a guitar, or any acoustic musical instrument. They both have spruce tops, rather conventional bracing, five fan braces and lattice bridge plates. They seem stout as hell, and have survived blistering heat and freezing cold, dryness and humidity extremes, without a hitch. They may suffer lamination problems or whatever, but at my age, I want the best responsive guitar I can own; it will surely outlast me. Traditionalist will and should question all the new innovations in guitar structure. That is a valuable and useful contribution, but time changes everything.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2016 2:51:04

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

Many double top guitars are sturdily made and you can easily forecast they will last as much as a traditional guitar.
They are made to last.
As John said, the nomex double top is extremely stiff and I don't think that the risk of delamination is a real issue.
This is not likely to happen if the work is well done.

IMHO the old Dammann guitars were a little too extreme though and here is the problem.
Dammann has been strongly influenced by the light guitars of Torres, and his goal is to make a synthetic top which can be as stressed as the Torres tops are.
The problem here is that the wood has quite a better longitudinal stiffness than a composite top because of the longitudinal direction of the wood grain. I suppose Dammann does it on purpose to get that S shaped top.
Obviously, after years of professional and intense use the thin top can give up.

You see, according to many the same thing happens with the Smallman guitars.
The problem here, seems again that the 0,6 mm cedar top Looses elasticity.

On the other side, neither Smallman not Dammann were able to make a spruce top work as nicely as the cedar top, probably because their systems need of a very thin and homogeneous membrane.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2016 9:05:08

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to Echi)

quote:

the nomex double top is extremely stiff and I don't think that the risk of delamination is a real issue.
This is not likely to happen if the work is well done.

Myself and many other more seasoned makers speculate delamination is inevitable over a long period of time. Glue breaks down and wood changes in internal structure over long periods of time. Resin breaks down in UV exposure, about the only reason those things hang together is that guitarsists don't use them as surfboards.

And still the problem is repairing them. Nomex is another trend, and trends come and go.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2016 9:25:39

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
And still the problem is repairing them. Nomex is another trend, and trends come and go.

This is the primary reason I've avoided double tops. Not only are repairs pretty much impossible but once the top is glued up you can't make any changes (fine tuning). I'm fond of adjusting the response of the guitar by thinning the edges just before finishing.

We've embarked on this endeavor as a result of requests from customers and basic curiosity not because I have any problem with solid top guitars and besides it's a fun and interesting experiment. If we never received another order I'd continue building and experimenting, after all what else is there to do during these boring winter months? I'm not ready for the easy chair and endless TV.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2016 14:58:47

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

There are 45 year old cedar top Shelton-Farretta guitars still being played and sounding ok. I played a classic cedar top from the early 80's very recently that sounded much better than I remembered it.

I got out my cedar/cypress 1967 1a Ramirez blanca night before last. I was impressed once again by its loudness and brilliance. It hasn't had as much action since I got my Arcangel Fernandez blanca, but it saw plenty of playing for 33 years before that.

The last couple of times I have seen the classical player Pepe Romero he has been playing fairly recent guitars by his son, but before that he was still playing cedar topped Miguel Rodriguez guitars that must have been over 40 years old.

http://tinyurl.com/gwenq3l

I think Kazuhito Yamashita still plays his cedar top Ramirez 1a from the 1960-70s. At least he was playing a Ramirez 1a when he was here last year. His sound filled a 1200-seat auditorium, un-amplified. From the front rows at least, he was loud.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2016 19:19:11

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to jshelton5040)

Well I should restate that- I think nomex is a trend, but I don't think it is going to fizzle out. The guitar making suppliers are now selling it and they'll keep listing it in catalogs and makers will buy it, and all the special glues a tools needed to use it. And guitarists will keep buying double tops.

But the classic designs are probably still the most stable and age worthy. The classic designs are difficult enough to master. Technologically speaking I want strings to get better and better and for string technologies to drive the construction process. On the classic designs, I built a verbatim copy of the bracing and dimensions of the Segovia Hauser that Brune' drew. I made the top 2.5 and thinned it a bit, a fantastic piece of old German spruce. It's a guitar as good as anything out there in its class and style. I did not do anything unusual, paid attention to the bridge and did careful work. That one will just keep getting better----unless someone drops a mic on it. It's the design, it's a good design.

The other oddball I hope happens is that some smart cookie will develop bamboo tops. I have pondered it, did you know the speed of sound in bamboo is higher than spruce? There is a guy in Japan making all bamboo guitars and they sound ok. Timber Bamboo grows three feet per year....if some industrial process where created that could clean up and edge join bamboo into thin sheets like bamboo flooring. It would be interesting to hear a lattice braced guitar made with 1.5 mm thick top.

And carbon graphite and balsa has been used for tops- it's all in the future, but in the end we all want a Torres or something very much like a Torres. It's kind of difficult to escape.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2016 1:56:19

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

And carbon graphite and balsa has been used for tops

Not to mention silk which is something I'm going to try.

Collecting guitars has no interest to me the only guitars I've coveted were the ones that sound great. I've never played a Torres but have played a couple of Santos and some other famous old guitars. With the exception of one 1936 Hauser none of them were particularly impressive although it's fun to look inside.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2016 14:23:51

Echi

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Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: double top flamencos (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

I got out my cedar/cypress 1967 1a Ramirez blanca night before last. I was impressed once again by its loudness and brilliance. It hasn't had as much action since I got my Arcangel Fernandez blanca, but it saw plenty of playing for 33 years before that.

The flamenco Ramirez guitars I could try were not particularly powerful.
IMHO they were nice sounding and with a bold, round note but the transient was quite soft and the whole sound not particularly projecting.
As I said, I can speak just for the guitars I tried, but I for one would't define the Ramirez as a powerful flamenco guitar.
Even my '82 cedar Gerundino, has a kind of dark round tone which I found nice at home, but a little frustrating on stage when you want to push the guitar.. .but I openly admit that maybe it's just me.
It's just a matter of tastes.

@John Shelton
Many people made trials by gluing plates of different materials (carbon, balsa, different kind of fabric etc) to the top but the advantage of nomex seems to be the whole 3d structure, and particularly the air between the sandwich.
Ross Gutmeier once used to glue carbon fibre to cedar, but I think he stopped to do so, and probably there is a reason.
Also other people like Robert Ruck or Friederich Holtier used to make all wood double top but eventually turned to use nomex.
The dealer of Dammann in USA said he is now using a different secret core, but I don't know more about it and don't entrust so much these kind of infos.
A lluthier in Italy posted some pictures of his tops made by gluing some silk to the spruce top with hh glue. I never tried, so I can't comment.
I read that recently I young fellow made a brilliant violin by reinforcing the top with some spider web, which is among the strongest materials in nature.
At the end I agree with Estebana: these things are promising but it's still to prove they can sounds the people like

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2016 16:45:27