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RE: Is Manuel Reyes Sr. overrated?
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Is Manuel Reyes Sr. overrated? (in reply to Leñador)
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The simple fact is value is created in the market place by both supply and demand. It does not matter whether demand is fueled by a real "need" or just someone's passing fancy. If the demand is there, someone will supply it, and the intersection of supply and demand will determine the value. Again, by omitting demand from his "Labor Theory of Value," Marx was off the mark. Laborers can put in hours and hours of labor producing square bicycle wheels, but their hours of labor will not result in any value because there will be no demand for a product that cannot be used. Demand, whether propelled by "need" or frivolous fancy, is the driving force behind value.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 13 2017 15:45:18
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Is Manuel Reyes Sr. overrated? (in reply to BarkellWH)
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Let me take a stab at the question of what determines the value of a guitar. First, I would say the labor of the luthier that goes into producing the guitar creates intrinsic value because he produces an instrument that is in demand because of the quality of sound, the playability, and other elements that make the instrument what it is. But it is because the luthier produces a guitar that is recognized as an instrument of quality, i.e., that is in demand, that gives the instrument its value.
Regarding the question, are some guitars overpriced, even if made by maestros like Manuel Reyes, Ramirez, and their peers? What is meant by overpriced? They are considered superb guitars by and large, and Reyes, Ramirez, et. al. have the name factor. There are only a limited number of their instruments available, so when one comes on the market and commands a hefty price, the answer in economic terms is it commands a price that the market will bear. In other words, it is our old friend "demand" that determines the guitar's value.
It is hard for me to come to terms with the idea of something being overpriced if it sells. A guitar, a work of art, a rare book, or a rare manuscript will command what the market will bear. And there are collectors who create some of that extraordinary demand. If it does not sell, then it is overpriced and will be put away or the price lowered. In other words, the Law of Supply (of such instruments and artifacts) and Demand will determine their value.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 13 2017 21:13:10
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Is Manuel Reyes Sr. overrated? (in reply to Leñador)
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That is a good summation Bill, remember provenance and auction records- provenance includes who is well known who plays a guitar of the same house or label. Guitars are generally valued the same way art and violins are, the same basic format.
Your summation gives a good idea or refutation to the idea that someone is overrated- If the market can bear heavy trade in a particular maker and the consensus is that maker is generally pretty good, they logically that label is not overrated. Overrated gets weeded of the market fast in most cases.
The only thing I would add is that guitars have not yet entered the same realm of value in the market as commodities or what I like to call place makers for money. I'm not saying gutiars are not worthy, they just have not made into that category, yet. Even the most expensive Torres is 46 million behind the Strad viola that sold last year setting a record price for Stradivari and for a violin.
Last year a Titian painting sold for 32 million, the Strad viola, the second rarest of Stradivari's output beat it by 14 million. And we know 14 million is a lot of canoli. several guitar collections of the best of the best could be bought for 14 mil. Strad's shop only turned out about ten violas so when they come to market in the future, watch out. His celli will also go through the roof.
If I had a Torres I would hold on to it. The thing that is irrational about the market is that as soon as the big collectors, the guy that can drop 50 million on a painting gets a taste for guitars and begin buying them from the collectors who have big holdings now, then that tier of trade catches onto guitars several things will happen to drive up prices. Here are two examples: One, the boys will compete with each other in a high stakes horse trading game, just like the guys who buy and sell guitars in the $5000.00 to $ 40,000 range or more, the guys who can sling around several million for art to out bid the other boys will do it as a sport. It is competitive, and compulsive to beat th other guy out to get the prize guitar. Instead of the rarest prewar Martin being close to $300,000 there are markets where it could trade for the same price as the Titian that sold last year.
The other reason the prices could go through the ceiling at auction is because if the kind of collector that can afford to spend 25 million on a guitar will get into the market to intentionally drive up the auction price so that they can donate the guitar to a museum and get a bigger tax write off for the donation or to look better and be a more valuable asset to the museum and have more sway with the museum officials. The market for high dollar art item is sometimes driven by a competition between collectors who want to be the one to make the donation to a museum that needs a particular work of art to make its collection more complete.
When the latter scenario happens then all manner of shenanigans are possible. There are experts called into give opinions on authenticity to make sure it really is what the seller clams it is etc. There have been fights in the art world that last for decades over whether or not the experts opinion was true or not. I have heard and read some terrific stories, but another time. Then a host of different kinds of insurance and commission fees and payouts arise to keep the item in the high dollar market, those fees need to be paid from the sellers profits and so are paid forward into the final starting bid or backroom asking price.
Anyway, there are lots of things that drive up price when the guitar gets into higher dollar markets. Eventually I think some 20th century and many 19th century guitars will get there. If you look at the price structuring of Stradivari and other Italian masters 150 years to 50 years after their death, the price model for master guitars is a bit behind them, but not by a lot. I think in fifty to a hundred years you won't be able to touch a Torres, literally and price wise, for under a great, great amount of money. And the price will have nothing to do with labor vs. demand.
Here is link to an article which shows how much provenance now plays in guitar sales in the top tier. Individual maker s not as important as label! The most expensive auction record setters are almost all factory jobs that cost under $1000 brand new. Go figure. So by this trend the most high dollar guitar is worth one 23rd of what the most expensive viola is worth. I can see the market going hog wild in the next 20 years on vintage Strats, but hold onto your Fleta longer to get the cool million. But who knows.
http://proguitarshop.com/andyscorner/10-most-expensive-guitars-ever-so-far
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Mar. 14 2017 0:22:17
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Is Manuel Reyes Sr. overrated? (in reply to Echi)
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quote:
Some guitars (and I'm not referring to Reyes here) cost a lot just for good marketing practices and not as they are better guitars
I was hoping someone would bring that up. This whole supply and demand discussion seemed to be omiting that we live in a world where some people have become experts at manufacturing demand. Saying there is demand or there isn't, and the buck stops there, gives an incomplete picture of the world we live in.
I don't think Reyes is overrated at all. Overpricing is another issue. I think he deserves the admiration he gets as a builder. That being said, I've tried 3 Reyes so far, and I never got that "gut feeling" that I get with a guitar I like and just might actually buy. I've never felt that with a Conde either, and I've tried dozens of those.
Maybe my gut feeling is the problem, but that's pretty much all I have to go on as a guitarist. If I'm going to buy an instrument, any discussion on the qualities of the guitar is just an ad hoc rationalization for me. It clicks or it doesn't. And sometimes it clicks with a piece of scrap and sometimes it doesn't click with a guitar built by a master, in which case I'll just admire the qualities of that guitar from afar as I can enjoy it yet have no desire whatsoever to play it myself. That's pretty much my feeling of the Reyes I've tried thus far. Admiration, but from a distance. So goes it.
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Date Mar. 14 2017 12:59:46
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