Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro

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Mr. T

Posts: 22
Joined: Oct. 29 2016

Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro

Hello a good day!

First post for me. I'm Mr. T and i would like to tab a piece of Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro.
The example is from the book Keys to Flamenco 2. I've lost the audio tapes that i bought with the books. Luckily i've got the solo's digitalized on my computer.

Programming examples in Guitar Pro could speed up my learning process (i hope).

Can you please tell me how i can get this example with proper beats in the first measure?
There is no counting on the left of the first measure (in the book).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 29 2016 10:25:51

AlVãl

Posts: 73
Joined: Oct. 20 2016

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to Mr. T)

It's not in 5/4
Set the bar/time signature
1) 12/4 - u may able to group-beam the eighth notes in 2 2 3 3 2. Or 2 2 2 3 3 assuming the first group
Of 2 will be the 5 count - this is if you want the full compas

2) alt bars 4/4 6/4 2/4 if u want a bar seperating each accent
Or 6/4 first bar grouped in 2's second in 3's

There are other options
Just important to beam the eighth notes/quavers with the 5 accents
But maybe the 12 olcrotchet beat would be easiest to read

6 beat count , felt in 2's - places the fourth accent on a contra beat to your foot which feels kinda cool
Could be written out that way with accent markings

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 29 2016 12:35:48

Mr. T

Posts: 22
Joined: Oct. 29 2016

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to Mr. T)

Thanks for your help AlVãl. I think you are completely right about the beats.
But i think there's also a note written too long.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 29 2016 14:22:50

Mr. T

Posts: 22
Joined: Oct. 29 2016

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to Mr. T)

Measure 2 also does not fall into place. And that's a measure with reasonably simple note's in terms of speed (i think).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 29 2016 14:45:13

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to Mr. T)

It's also quite common to use 2 measures of 3/4 (or 6/8) for 1 compas

1st measure - 3 crotchets (i.e. starts of 5)
2nd measure - 2 dotted crotchets (i.e. starts on 3)
repeat

In Paco Pena's Son De Campanas both 3/4 and 6/8 are written at the beginning in the very first measure.

In Jorge Berges' transcription of De Madruga he has written 3/4 in every measure with the feel of what I've called "1st measure" and 6/8 in every measure with the feel of the "2nd measure" - they don't always alternate strictly throughout the piece suggesting a kind of half compas approach to feeling the compas is needed in places.

Edit: Jorge Berges also occasionally uses 6/8 for the first measure if a dotted crotchet is played on 5 - possibly just for convinience.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 29 2016 16:23:16

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to Mr. T)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. T

Measure 2 also does not fall into place. And that's a measure with reasonably simple note's in terms of speed (i think).

Your problem is with the software and how to express the tuplet groupings and meter. It's not 12/4 it's actually 6/4 you need to use. But the beaming will look strange at the end of the day. Next the subdivisions.... You can't simply select a 32nd note you have to also select the tuplet grouping for EACH note that is not normal division. So each 64th you have to make sure it is also selected as "9" because normally only 8 would fit there. Also you have a mistaken dotted quarter note, it is just a reagurlar quarter but for sake of reading I would personlly tie two 8th notes together. IN the second measure each 16th note there needs also to be selected as "6" as you have 6 instead of the normal 4 per group.

For anyone that wants the beaming to look right you should try a measure of 7/8 altering with a measure of 5/8, with specific beaming 2+2+3 for the 7 measure, and 3+2 for the 5 measure. Start with two empty measures and cut and paste those for as long as you need. Metronome or tempo mark will be 8th note=140 bpm (in the above case).

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 29 2016 18:48:14

Mr. T

Posts: 22
Joined: Oct. 29 2016

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to Mr. T)

Ok, thanks Ricardo!

It's starting to look a little like music.
I think i understood a little of your post. While it's difficult to group tuplets with various speed, it's more easy to divide the measerure(s).
Still it was not easy to fit the notes in the measures. I had to adjust the note with the dot. And i had to make adjustments on two other places.
I am sure there are few mistakes in the print below.

Sorry for my lack of knowledge.
Would you please take another look at my screenshot?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 29 2016 21:08:39

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to Mr. T)

It's easy to insert tuplets in Guitar Pro, all you have to do is insert the number you see above.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 29 2016 21:44:53

Mr. T

Posts: 22
Joined: Oct. 29 2016

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to Mr. T)

quote:

Sr. Martins
It's easy to insert tuplets in Guitar Pro, all you have to do is insert the number you see above.

Right, but it looks strange?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2016 0:06:21

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to Mr. T)

http://youtu.be/Ef82TQz1reY

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2016 0:28:01

AlVãl

Posts: 73
Joined: Oct. 20 2016

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to Ricardo)

Apologies
I meant 12/8 is the original is written in 12/8 or 6/4 ?
Grouped 2 2 3 3 2
I always thought the 6 crotchets more a foot thing than notation
Could easily be wrong here
I like the additive aporoach 7-5
The additive makes the accents clearer as would other additives over a 12 beat cycle

Thanks for the info

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2016 1:06:37

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to AlVãl)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlVãl
I always thought the 6 more a foot thing than notation

Do you mean you'll often just foot tap twice per compas (on 5 and 3) & not 5 times (each accented beat)? When would you prefer 2 taps over 5? Or do you switch between these two alternative foot tap patterns all the time at any given moment?

Just curious.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2016 1:24:47

AlVãl

Posts: 73
Joined: Oct. 20 2016

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to Dudnote)

Same as buleria 'feel' (not notation)
6 taps each compas
Tapping every second eighth ( starting on 8 of compas this makes sense to me and gives me some freedom in improv or playing 'over' the compas )
So
First three with the accent/tap
4 played accent on the contra
5 on accent/tap

Using a standard metronome I can't see any other way - just looks odd notation wise

All subject to tempo ( for me anyway )
other times just as the five accents

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2016 1:28:46

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to AlVãl)

Off course, and why not?

With bulerias you can also tap out 4 even taps per compas. Wonder how common this is among pros with siguiriyas? So even taps with a tap on 1 1/2 ? (and why not, especially if shifting the accept from 1 to 1 1/2 - which is pretty common)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2016 1:57:05

AlVãl

Posts: 73
Joined: Oct. 20 2016

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to Dudnote)

Yup
The four tap is great - like a morphed waltz
Yet to try this dotted approach with sig
But thanks for the idea

No idea about the pros
Hopefully some input on this

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2016 2:08:38

Mr. T

Posts: 22
Joined: Oct. 29 2016

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to Mr. T)

quote:

Sr. Martins

http://youtu.be/Ef82TQz1reY

Thanks, but your first post also pointed to some direction.

Or is it something else you are trying to say?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2016 7:08:09

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to Mr. T)

Was trying to show you how it's done. What you did is wrong, that's why it doesn't look right.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2016 11:56:54

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to Mr. T)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. T

Ok, thanks Ricardo!

It's starting to look a little like music.
I think i understood a little of your post. While it's difficult to group tuplets with various speed, it's more easy to divide the measerure(s).
Still it was not easy to fit the notes in the measures. I had to adjust the note with the dot. And i had to make adjustments on two other places.
I am sure there are few mistakes in the print below.

Sorry for my lack of knowledge.
Would you please take another look at my screenshot?

Don't quite understand why you can't bring yourself to input the EXACT data as per the book you are copying. Meaning, your first arrow is an added unnecessary rest....you have NONE of the triplet markings as I described and just inputted regular 32nds and 64th which the rhythms ARE NOT....next arrow is a quarter note that it recommend you write as two 8th notes TIED TOGETHER...third arrow is an enharmonic error and should be Bb, as per key signature....and last measure you inexplicably write 32nd notes when they were clearly expressed as 16th triplets, or sextuplets (24th notes). I assume you did that to cram the notes because you still dont' get it that you need to CLICK ON EACH INDIVIUDAL NOTE HEAD and select "6 in place of 4" for each and every group that has a number 6 above it in the original score.

Glad you did in fact get the meter correct with groupings though!

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2016 17:26:40

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to AlVãl)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlVãl

Apologies
I meant 12/8 is the original is written in 12/8 or 6/4 ?
Grouped 2 2 3 3 2
I always thought the 6 crotchets more a foot thing than notation
Could easily be wrong here
I like the additive aporoach 7-5
The additive makes the accents clearer as would other additives over a 12 beat cycle

Thanks for the info

The traditional notation practice is meant to function a certain way in practice. What the original shows is an inventive way to express the rhythm as one bar line indicates one compas cycle. The beaming is done to express phrasing that is normally done or felt in the flamenco form, but the end result is a weird hybrid that would make no sense to an experienced music reader of a different discipline. The 7+5 situation I recommended earlier is IMO the ONLY Correct way to translate what the phrasing of the music ACTUALLY IS if you wanted a non flamenco to read it on paper and feel it properly. The odd symmetry of the phrase and accents is easily expressed by the normal beaming, the harmonic resolutions by the bar line, the steady tempo is easier or more properly maintained (than by the typical but wrong method of alternating 6/8 and 3/4) etc. The only thing that is lost with this method (and frankly this is a problem with ALL flamenco forms) is the "remate".

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2016 17:37:38

Mr. T

Posts: 22
Joined: Oct. 29 2016

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to Mr. T)

quote:

Ricardo:

Don't quitehttp://www.foroflamenco.com/upload.asp understand why you can't bring yourself to input the EXACT data as per the book you are copying

Yes, i was slow in understanding. Biggest cause was my limited capabilty in reading within a musical context in english.

But thanks hombres!

Think i've got it (2 times):

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2016 8:19:56

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to Mr. T)

Getting better. The beaming can look better and no need for double bar lines. Try instead of 7/8.... 2+2+3/8. And for the 5 try 3+2/8.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2016 14:48:41

Mr. T

Posts: 22
Joined: Oct. 29 2016

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to Mr. T)

quote:

Ricardo:

Getting better. The beaming can look better and no need for double bar lines. Try instead of 7/8.... 2+2+3/8. And for the 5 try 3+2/8.

Yeah, space is not well used. Based on a short search i would say that you can't get rid off a double bar in Guitar Pro 6 between beat/measure changes.

Silly perhaps, but i do not really understand what you meant with this;

quote:

Try instead of 7/8.... 2+2+3/8. And for the 5 try 3+2/8.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2016 16:20:50

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to Mr. T)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. T

quote:

Ricardo:

Getting better. The beaming can look better and no need for double bar lines. Try instead of 7/8.... 2+2+3/8. And for the 5 try 3+2/8.

Yeah, space is not well used. Based on a short search i would say that you can't get rid off a double bar in Guitar Pro 6 between beat/measure changes.

Silly perhaps, but i do not really understand what you meant with this;

quote:

Try instead of 7/8.... 2+2+3/8. And for the 5 try 3+2/8.

To clarify. Odd meter refers to rhythm that uses odd numbers not even numbers. 2/4, 4/4,6/4 etc, vs 5/4 or 7/4. Compound meter uses a time signature that refers to a group of subdivided notes that can be felt it groups of "beats". For example 6/8 is normally felt as 2 beats with a division of 3 8th notes per beat. 12/8 same idea except you have 4 beats.

But 9/8 is compound meter but is also ODD...so you can have different ways to express "beats". For example you can have 4 beats in a bar but one of the beats will have an extra 8th note. The beaming of the 8th notes will show how the feel needs to be expressed. A typical 9/8 might be 1&2&3&4&ah, repeat. There is no rule or law that this feel need to be maintained, but it would certainly clarify things if it were understood as 2+2+2+3 8th notes vs other combinations that equal 9. That way the feel can be maintainded despite any synchopations against the beat. Other beaming variants might have the 3 8ths beamed as the first beat, or later 3+3+3 can be used instead of any duple grouping at all, changing the 9/8 meter to more of a 3 beat feel similar to the familiar 6/8 or 12/8 examples mentioned.

So getting back to siguiriyas, if you chose to use odd meter you have different options for beaming the 8th notes to express the beat or accents more accurately.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2016 3:18:01

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to AlVãl)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlVãl

Same as buleria 'feel' (not notation)
6 taps each compas
Tapping every second eighth ( starting on 8 of compas this makes sense to me and gives me some freedom in improv or playing 'over' the compas )
So
First three with the accent/tap
4 played accent on the contra
5 on accent/tap

Using a standard metronome I can't see any other way - just looks odd notation wise

All subject to tempo ( for me anyway )
other times just as the five accents

I feel the same way. Trying to separate a compas into different time signatures just confuses me.
12/8 or 6/4 and expressing the accents through groupings seems the most natural to read.

The whole thing's gotta groove, embrace the hemiola.

Mr.T - do you understand which notes are accented in each compas?
Those are the important ones, and the rest are just embellishments.
I think Ricardo's trying to show you by making you think of the smaller groupings within each measure ((2 + 2 + 3) + (3 + 2))

Some notes come before the accent, some after. But they all "belong to", or "serve", the accents.

Sorry if any of this is obvious

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2016 4:24:48

Mr. T

Posts: 22
Joined: Oct. 29 2016

RE: Siguiriyas in Guitar Pro (in reply to Mr. T)

quote:

chester:
Mr.T - do you understand which notes are accented in each compas?

Well, uhm, yes.
The book is quite obvious for timing (the pulse for me).
While i wanted to tab the rest of the example and was still not totaly understanding Ricardo i went back to book 1.

And there it was written.....
Sorry copyright

Anyways, the result.
Thanks a lot for your help. It was fun and interesting