RE: Picado Advice

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RE: Picado Advice

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Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to hamia)

quote:

Well good luck with that but I would bet that 2 years of doing that will get you only a small improvement in picado.

2 hours of this would show improvement...at least for the first guy to post.

I want to point out the idea of "power" in a stroke should not be the focus...the quick planting i.e. Preparation will produce you the loudest sound with little physical strength involved. The thing that takes physical effort is controlling the reset action, that is where people's sound and speed limit breakdown. Since PDL is being mention, there was a quote I can't find where he gave advice to a luthier he wanted the guitar string to snap back quickly enough for him to play fast...so he felt some guitars where not letting him reset quick enough...probably has to do with tension of the string while getting the right tone. Playing quick near the bridge is easier than over the sound hole because of the way the string vibrates, but near the bridge might not be the optimal sound you are looking for.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 11:41:11

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to Ricardo)

Are you saying its a trade off between being quicker to reset near the bridge due to less movement and a rounder , but slower , tone over the sound hole ...?
.
sorry to butt in but im going to try to improve my picado a bit as well, which should be easy as its really bad ...I find tone is a big problem ...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 13:27:51

hamia

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

Well good luck with that but I would bet that 2 years of doing that will get you only a small improvement in picado.

2 hours of this would show improvement...at least for the first guy to post.

I want to point out the idea of "power" in a stroke should not be the focus...the quick planting i.e. Preparation will produce you the loudest sound with little physical strength involved. The thing that takes physical effort is controlling the reset action, that is where people's sound and speed limit breakdown. Since PDL is being mention, there was a quote I can't find where he gave advice to a luthier he wanted the guitar string to snap back quickly enough for him to play fast...so he felt some guitars where not letting him reset quick enough...probably has to do with tension of the string while getting the right tone. Playing quick near the bridge is easier than over the sound hole because of the way the string vibrates, but near the bridge might not be the optimal sound you are looking for.

I wonder if Paco thought that the string vibration depended on the guitar (not due to scale length, or string type). He plucked imo (and I know people dispute this) mostly parallel to the soundboard (not pressing down too much) and so he might want the amplitude of transverse component to be small. Cos otherwise, if it's large, the string could happen to be some distance away from his fingertip at the place where he usually likes to make contact - and that would cause a delay. I'm not sure what variables go into that from a guitar point of view. The plucking force, the density of the string/unit length, length of string are the main factors - and these are independent of guitar. I'm not fully convinced that there will be a big difference in string displacement between different guitars if scale length and string type are kept invariable. They may sound a lot different that that is another matter. Perhaps there is some type of damping factor that varies between guitars which might be playing a role here.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 15:14:12

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to Cervantes)

quote:

I see your A finger moving around a lot indicating tension and lack of finger independence.

During picado, A and C should move along with M finger. M, A, and C fingers are all connected anatomically.
His A finger moves with M, so he's fine in that regard.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 16:52:55

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to ToddK)

I've noticed that when I do IM picado, A moves around with M (not C so much in my case). The weird thing though is that when I practice IA picado, M stays pretty much still. I've never figured out why that might be. It's like they're connected in one direction only

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 17:01:23

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to Ricardo)

C finger should stick straight out or curl up in hard tension for style points.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 17:06:24

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to at_leo_87)

yep ...little pinky sticking out ..makes it sound instantly more flamenco ....

.Piwin ..yes , my fingers do the same thing , I never really noticed that before ...
and I like I.A. it feels comfortable , albeit slower , i think its those 2 fingers are more equal in length especially if your hand is at a bit of an angle ..

.
Question .. about this planting the finger for the next note .. i am doing this really slow , to try and improve , but what happens when you change strings ...
i.e.
the scale of C Maj descending from G.(top E string )
G plant stopping the note
F plant stopping the note
E (open) plant on B string , not stopping the E note
so at this point the plant is on the next string , so it sounds different ..
.
.
the only way out is to play the scale with lightning speed so that you don't notice ..
of course

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 18:55:25

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

so at this point the plant is on the next string , so it sounds different

because in practising this way the "staccato" is not the important thing, the "planting" is.
So leave the top E ringing and prepare the D note.
At slow speed it sounds weird, but at speed it's not really noticeable.

Just curious about this way of practising, which I experiment with myself quite a bit, so I'm not knocking it.... but where, or who, does it come from?
Paco de Lucía?
Manolo Sanlúcar?
Gerardo Nuñez?
I notice neither Gerardo in Encuentro vid nor Niño de Pura in new La Sonanta vid mention it or recommend it in discussions of Picado in technique sections.
I asked my teacher in Algeciras about it a few years ago and he said "it's not necessary".

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 19:37:26

Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

because in practising this way the "staccato" is not the important thing, the "planting" is.

Exactly. What helps me is not even playing notes (practice can annoy the people you live with), just planting my fingers on a string so they land exactly in between the nail and flesh. It is a good warm up and helps right hand precision which IMO is the only way to speed up. Everyone can move their fingers fast, the whole point is to play notes.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 19:48:21

Kiko_Roca

Posts: 82
Joined: Apr. 25 2016
From: Midwest, USA

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to johnnefastis)

It could just

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnnefastis

Just recording this and it made me realise how my planting gets worse as I speed up so maybe best to just do more like the first bit. 1 note per beat.

It could just be a trick of the video, but your m/i fingers appear to be rubbing together quite a lot during the picado, even to the extend that you are planting m in front of i - which is going to slow you down as you speed up.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 20:11:22

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87
C finger should stick straight out or curl up in hard tension for style points.

I remember reading somewhere long ago someone arguing that sticky out pinkies generates extra tension and is therefore counter productive for speed. Anyone here share that view?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 23:16:38

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to Dudnote)

Yeah I'd heard that too. I stick it out some but I just try to make sure it's not "stiff". Like, V. Amigo has it sticking way out there, but it's still moving in sync with a and m, it's not rigid.
Not like when you're playing a concert flute and your pinky gets so stiff, if you're a beginner, you can't even bend it when you stop playing...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 23:32:22

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

so at this point the plant is on the next string , so it sounds different

because in practising this way the "staccato" is not the important thing, the "planting" is.
So leave the top E ringing and prepare the D note.
At slow speed it sounds weird, but at speed it's not really noticeable.

Just curious about this way of practising, which I experiment with myself quite a bit, so I'm not knocking it.... but where, or who, does it come from?
Paco de Lucía?
Manolo Sanlúcar?
Gerardo Nuñez?
I notice neither Gerardo in Encuentro vid nor Niño de Pura in new La Sonanta vid mention it or recommend it in discussions of Picado in technique sections.
I asked my teacher in Algeciras about it a few years ago and he said "it's not necessary".

They don't emphasize it necessarily but it should be obvious. I first adapted it as a musical thing hearing PDL play with the trio. At first I thought it was his left hand until I saw a video at which point the benefits became obvious to me. I only have seen it taught by Scott Tennant in Pumping nylon with some excellent exercises. I discussed this with some older Spanish guitarists and the name came up that Manolo de Huelva was using this technique, which is going back to golden era. Simple fact is that you can't play without planting, so the idea of the benefits of staccato practice should not be debatable.

For KIKO about open string ringing at crossing....ONLY PRACTICE ASCENDING SCALES.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2016 4:07:04

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to Dudnote)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dudnote

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87
C finger should stick straight out or curl up in hard tension for style points.

I remember reading somewhere long ago someone arguing that sticky out pinkies generates extra tension and is therefore counter productive for speed. Anyone here share that view?

Manolo Sanlucar is very relaxed, no tension in the pinky etc. PDL has a tense pinky sticking out, as does Cepero and Vicente, Tomatito but curled up, Enrique del Melchor tucked it under, etc. Who is faster? Does it matter who is faster and what the pinky is doing?

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www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2016 4:11:26

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to Dudnote)

quote:

I remember reading somewhere long ago someone arguing that sticky out pinkies generates extra tension and is therefore counter productive for speed. Anyone here share that view?

It's always safe to suggest to keep the hand as relaxed as possible with the pinky maybe moving passively with the M finger. However, it would be really difficult to argue that tea cup pinkies are incorrect when so many of the greats do it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2016 4:15:32

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to at_leo_87)

Y'all know where I stand when it comes to the pinky sticking out. Don't get me started again with the rubber band.

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Ramzi

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2016 4:45:34

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87

quote:

I remember reading somewhere long ago someone arguing that sticky out pinkies generates extra tension and is therefore counter productive for speed. Anyone here share that view?

It's always safe to suggest to keep the hand as relaxed as possible with the pinky maybe moving passively with the M finger. However, it would be really difficult to argue that tea cup pinkies are incorrect when so many of the greats do it.

Agreed. But I wish I could remember where I had read that. Perhaps it was here years ago, or the FlamencoTeacher forum when that was active. In fact the guy had argued exactly that, he even had the audacity to suggest that Tomatito, Vicente and others could go "even faster" ( his words, not mine) if they didn't stick out the pinky. Perhaps there's no milage in going further with this part of the discussion, but I was curious how wide spread such a view was.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2016 11:28:03

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to Dudnote)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dudnote

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87

quote:

I remember reading somewhere long ago someone arguing that sticky out pinkies generates extra tension and is therefore counter productive for speed. Anyone here share that view?

It's always safe to suggest to keep the hand as relaxed as possible with the pinky maybe moving passively with the M finger. However, it would be really difficult to argue that tea cup pinkies are incorrect when so many of the greats do it.

Agreed. But I wish I could remember where I had read that. Perhaps it was here years ago, or the FlamencoTeacher forum when that was active. In fact the guy had argued exactly that, he even had the audacity to suggest that Tomatito, Vicente and others could go "even faster" ( his words, not mine) if they didn't stick out the pinky. Perhaps there's no milage in going further with this part of the discussion, but I was curious how wide spread such a view was.

http://www.flamenco-teacher.com/forum?do=archive&page=art&dispt=32156&disp=32162
For the record, Behzad is a close colleague of mine. I have to admit at the time of this posting above (2003) he was quite young and green player. His teacher he describes that gave him this advice is our friend Grisha of course. We have since evolved a lot since these discussions about pinkies and picados...to say the least!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 27 2016 13:47:24

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo,

Thanks for posting that, it is very detailed and I am looking forward to trying it out.
It would be cool if there was a video of Behzad playing his picado, but I guess I can always just watch Grisha

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Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2016 15:52:27

jg7238

Posts: 2869
Joined: May 11 2009

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

I want to point out the idea of "power" in a stroke should not be the focus...the quick planting i.e. Preparation will produce you the loudest sound with little physical strength involved. The thing that takes physical effort is controlling the reset action, that is where people's sound and speed limit breakdown

Great point Ricardo. That's exactly what I did when I made the transition from classical to flamenco guitar and it really helped a great deal. It's basically like a staccatto exercise.(play the note and immediately stop it with the alternating finger), etc.... Also make sure your nails are in tiptop shape otherwise there will be some frustration involved.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2016 18:57:10

Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to jg7238)

quote:

Also make sure your nails are in tiptop shape otherwise there will be some frustration involved

Yes, but I also can't stress enough with placement of the fingers on the string. You HAVE to make sure every staccato stroke lands in between the nail and the finger. It means nothing if you practice for years if the string is landing only on flesh. The same can be said for arpeggio but particularly tremolo. This is has helped me loads more than anything else.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2016 19:48:28

jg7238

Posts: 2869
Joined: May 11 2009

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to Aretium)

quote:

You HAVE to make sure every staccato stroke lands in between the nail and the finger. It means nothing if you practice for years if the string is landing only on flesh

Well, that's pretty obvious if you want to achieve an even sounding picado and good tone as well. You always want to make contact at the same spot with the string. Quite frankly it's that simple.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2016 20:02:06

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to Aretium)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aretium

quote:

Also make sure your nails are in tiptop shape otherwise there will be some frustration involved

Yes, but I also can't stress enough with placement of the fingers on the string. You HAVE to make sure every staccato stroke lands in between the nail and the finger. It means nothing if you practice for years if the string is landing only on flesh. The same can be said for arpeggio but particularly tremolo. This is has helped me loads more than anything else.

Yes, but even the pros cheat a little on this by using petroleum on the finger tips...really helps to slide off the flesh into the right spot if you are not so fast and accurate with arps and tremolo....picado is a little easy to get this right for some reason.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2016 21:54:13

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to Ricardo)

I am finding that a reverse arpeggio (a-m-i) is as difficult if not more so than picado or tremolo. I have most problem with the i finger. Check out 00:21 into this video

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Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2016 22:19:21

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Yes, but even the pros cheat a little on this by using petroleum on the finger tips...really helps to slide off the flesh into the right spot if you are not so fast and accurate with arps and tremolo....picado is a little easy to get this right for some reason.

my finger tips have been getting extremely dry mid show lately. i think it's the dust from all the super glue or sometimes acrylic nail.

i'm going to try using vaseline again but i've always over done it in the past.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2016 22:49:42

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to Ricardo)

0:21 in that video is a descending arpeggio.... M I A P.... Did you mean that part?

quote:

i'm going to try using vaseline again but i've always over done it in the past.

Swear I'm not joking but have you even tried the sides of your nose or somewhere around your hairline??? Lol can't remember who taught me that but it saved my butt once, my hands were super clammy.

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2016 22:51:33

Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to Cervantes)

quote:

I am finding that a reverse arpeggio (a-m-i) is as difficult if not more so than picado or tremolo. I have most problem with the i finger. Check out 00:21 into this video

That is weird, I find them super easy. Can nail them without a warm up without any practice. The other way around is much harder for me IAM, need to practice it more especially IAMAI fast arpeggios which I am guilty of not maintaining.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2016 23:29:18

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

0:21 in that video is a descending arpeggio.... M I A P.... Did you mean that part?

quote:

i'm going to try using vaseline again but i've always over done it in the past.

Swear I'm not joking but have you even tried the sides of your nose or somewhere around your hairline??? Lol can't remember who taught me that but it saved my butt once, my hands were super clammy.

Tiger balm works great too and you can rub a little under your nose to help you breath more easily. Don't rub it in the eyes though.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2016 0:04:28

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

Swear I'm not joking but have you even tried the sides of your nose or somewhere around your hairline??? Lol can't remember who taught me that but it saved my butt once, my hands were super clammy.

haha, yes! unfortunately, i still can't enough grease and im sure i look really weird rubbing all over my face and behind my ears in between songs. to make it worse, i ended up getting a pimple on my nose from doing that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2016 19:46:06