Picado Advice

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Picado Advice

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ZaidRockso

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec. 20 2013

Picado Advice

I went through a picado improving phase a while back. And stopped, ( Direct practice , however i still played very regularly ) . Trying to improve it again, mainly trying to think in a speed burst sense. How do i advance?

Link below is a quick example of my current picado ability

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2016 9:57:35

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to ZaidRockso)

get lessons

and/or the DVD in this thread http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=296253&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#296291

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2016 10:15:47

ZaidRockso

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec. 20 2013

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Thanks for your advice, however i would prefer advice along the lines of what am i doing wrong if i'm doing anything wrong, and how to correct it.
There are certain techniques that just get better/faster/ more accurate with time, rather than fixing something with it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2016 10:22:48

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Use a metronome. In your vid, your picado runs get noticeably slower towards the end. And the long runs aren't really that useful if you're not using them to practice stamina imo.
I wouldn't play with my elbow that high, but maybe that's just me. Looks like it'd create a lot of unnecessary tension, especially since it doesn't seem like your resting your arm anywhere on the guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2016 11:19:04

Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to ZaidRockso)

precision is the most important. So do staccato powerfully but VERY slowly making sure that every movement is the same and that you land exactly where the nail meets the flesh. It won't matter the nail shape or how rough the nail is. I think Grisha talked about this on one of his videos and he destroyed a picado run and his nails were almost non existent.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2016 12:10:36

ZaidRockso

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec. 20 2013

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Thanks for the lovely advice :) I am aware that i slow at the end, but that's intentional i believe, i remember once reading as i mentioned in my first post that speed bursts are the best way to increase speed, and that's what i was trying to do and eventually slowing down. I usually practice my picados with metronomes however i wasn't able to get the beats sound recorded for some reason, if i make an update video i'll run a metronome from another device.

Piwin, Regarding elbow height, this is a posture that was taught to me a very long time ago by a traditional flamenco guitarist that has been taught by big names. I remember he quoted " You want to play at 90Degrees so it's almost perpendicular. Use only the lower side of your palm on the body of the guitar and just above your wrist ( on where the body meets the side of the guitar ) to rest on the guitar while doing picados, and keep doing that, the only time you'll rest in a different way is when you reach strings 1-3, at the point your thumb will also rest on string 6.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2016 14:25:15

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to ZaidRockso)

I think a more effective way of practicing speed bursts would be:
1. do the same run with the metronome set at the same bpm and just alternate the rhythm (say, switch from 8th notes to 32ndnotes and back). But no switching speeds in the middle of the run.
2. Play increasingly-long bits of the same run as fast as you can. 2 first notes, then 3 first notes, then 4, etc. Here too it is better to have a steady (slow in this case) metronome in the background.

As for the posture, I was just pointing out what seemed most unusual to me. If it works for you, all the better. Part of it may just be a false impression I'm getting from the video. The description you give of the technique is very common, but I wonder if you're not taking the 90° thing too literally. Anyways, all that matters is that you're relaxed (dang it...the Cano Roto club is starting to rub off on me...) so if you are with that posture, all the better.

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2016 14:49:12

athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Hello Zaid,
I really liked this video from Adam del Monte

At the beginning he talks about quality of sound and motion, it looks and sounds like that you need to work a lot on both. Take a look at the posture of the right hand and arm, which is very important too. There is no reason to raise your arm and shoulder that high.
Look at Jose Luis de la Paz, he has a killer Picado and I really like how relaxed he is while playing crazy stuff.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2016 15:03:08

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Agree with what's been said.
Speed bursts are usually practiced in small 3-5 note at a time intervals, not an entire scale. Also, you really need to focus on tone, my picado is slow as **** but it sounds okay which is preferable to a fast picado that sounds bad.
Many picado masters swear by staccato technique during practice, I plan to start trying that since i'm in a bit of a rutt speed wise.

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2016 17:16:05

ZaidRockso

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec. 20 2013

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Thanks for all the advice, i'll stop reading and try focus on practicing and re-changing my posture for now followed by exercise etiquete.. I remember very well that i was advised to use my shoulder to cross strings, not the elbow. Adam del monte says the exact opposite.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2016 17:30:03

ZaidRockso

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec. 20 2013

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Sorry , here again, can someone tell me if this is wrong?

This is more or less the same posture i'm sure, elbow pretty high.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2016 17:44:10

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to ZaidRockso)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZaidRockso

Sorry , here again, can someone tell me if this is wrong?

This is more or less the same posture i'm sure, elbow pretty high.

Totally wrong, ingnore this nut.

IN your video, you play too close to the bridge and have too much movement that you can't plant fast enough. STACATO is key for you....plant play and the next finger plants immediately killing the sound. You can think of it musically as putting a rest between each note, just be sure it is the RIGHT hand doing the stopping not the left. You will first discover how slow you have to play to achieve this, but at the same time you motion will be way more efficient.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2016 17:58:41

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to Ricardo)

LOL. This guy has really infested the internet and particularly YouTube. His guitars are getting wackier looking as well.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2016 18:05:00

Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to ZaidRockso)

His guitars sound like bleeeugh.

Best tip ever when searching for Paco. add -ruben at the end to remove all his videos from the search results.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2016 18:10:47

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to Aretium)

quote:

Best tip ever when searching for Paco. add -ruben at the end to remove all his videos from the search results.

you just won the internet. thank you.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2016 18:21:18

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to ZaidRockso)

I agree with everything Ricardo said. I see your A finger moving around a lot indicating tension and lack of finger independence.
Elbow and hand position will be different for everybody, trying to conform to what you somebody told you may not be the best idea. The greatest players have vastly different picado technique.
I think the Adam Delmonte video will help you. This is not the time to worry about speed, but clarity and tone.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2016 18:24:12

ZaidRockso

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec. 20 2013

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

quote

Thanks ricardo And Cervantes. I'm getting mixed answers here. Would you 2 personally recommend changing the right arm posture? How my elbow is higher than most ? Or is it just a different way but not a wrong way? I understand that wrong is subjective. However i think that things like arm posture is generally agreed upon . If you recommend i change it, how do you recommend i do that? Thanks!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2016 18:38:24

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to ZaidRockso)

quote:

STACATO is key for you....plant play and the next finger plants immediately killing the sound.

I have no doubt this is brilliant advice but are there any good videos of people demonstrating this slowly. I would love to see how you deal with descending scales as the string above would always be ringing wouldn't it. I have read it so many times but not seen it that much.

It would be great to see someone demonstrate how they think ZaidRocksos exercises should be practiced.

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2016 18:58:22

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to johnnefastis)

I would practice string changes and staccato separately. Typical staccato exercices are on one-string, which you then repeat to each of the six.
In other words, it's not really "do the same exercises but staccato", rather it's "do staccato exercices". If memory serves, atrafana had a video about that. That's the only one that comes to mind right off the bat.

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2016 19:36:11

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to ZaidRockso)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZaidRockso

quote:

quote

Thanks ricardo And Cervantes. I'm getting mixed answers here. Would you 2 personally recommend changing the right arm posture? How my elbow is higher than most ? Or is it just a different way but not a wrong way? I understand that wrong is subjective. However i think that things like arm posture is generally agreed upon . If you recommend i change it, how do you recommend i do that? Thanks!

What you are asking is very subjective. Some players raise their elbow when playing picado and some do not. Paco De Lucia is one who does raise his elbow probably more than some, Paco Cepero does not. Both have incredible picado. Its hard to tell from from your video but your elbow seems excessively high. But playing picado or any technique is incredibly complex and involves much more than elbow position, so you need to work also on hand and finger position and find what works best for you.

Good luck

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2016 21:06:57

hamia

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to ZaidRockso)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZaidRockso

Thanks for all the advice, i'll stop reading and try focus on practicing and re-changing my posture for now followed by exercise etiquete.. I remember very well that i was advised to use my shoulder to cross strings, not the elbow. Adam del monte says the exact opposite.

Look at Paco - he raises the upper arm to play picado. This is because he doesn't want to change the flat shape of his right hand as he moves across the strings. Other players (Del Monte) maybe don't do this - which is ok for them. Anyway, if Paco is your model you could do worse than try and copy him. The guy who said the shoulder is used to change strings is not wrong. The crossing from 1st to 6th (high to low E) is quite a bit easier than the other way. When practicing this string crossing don't anchor your right hand - i.e. no contact with thumb on guitar. This will help train the cross string movement- it allows the fingers to 'feel' their way across the strings in conjunction with a smooth movement of the upper arm. When you are not practicing though you can anchor the thumb for security.
What you are doing is not a speed burst. A speed burst is very very fast. Your technique at moment means that your speed burst will probably only be 2 or 3 notes - play these as an unconscious rapid finger movement.
Play a lot of short repetitive patterns. You don't need a metronome for these and they can be done while watching TV. Nails should be very short - no nails is good.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2016 22:34:00

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to ZaidRockso)

How did the foro not block Ruben's video? Hola, Simon - me gustaaaaaaaaaa!

(quoting Emilio Maya)

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 22 2016 22:34:51

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to johnnefastis)

quote:

I have no doubt this is brilliant advice but are there any good videos of people demonstrating this slowly.

Juanito was a student of Adams.

Here's speed bursts

ZaidRockso, is your name based on Dr. Rockso the rock and roll clown from metalacolypse?? If so that's ****ing awesome! \m/

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 23 2016 1:16:48

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to johnnefastis)

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnnefastis

quote:

STACATO is key for you....plant play and the next finger plants immediately killing the sound.

I have no doubt this is brilliant advice but are there any good videos of people demonstrating this slowly. I would love to see how you deal with descending scales as the string above would always be ringing wouldn't it. I have read it so many times but not seen it that much.

It's how I remember Nick teaching it.

@ZaidRockso - you can also practice different finger combos imim, iaia, mama, alternating the finger you start with. It's weird, but improving your amam has knock on effects on your imim.

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Ay compañerita de mi alma
tú ahora no me conoces.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 23 2016 2:17:50

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to ZaidRockso)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZaidRockso

quote:

quote

Thanks ricardo And Cervantes. I'm getting mixed answers here. Would you 2 personally recommend changing the right arm posture? How my elbow is higher than most ? Or is it just a different way but not a wrong way? I understand that wrong is subjective. However i think that things like arm posture is generally agreed upon . If you recommend i change it, how do you recommend i do that? Thanks!

first of all...the elbow arm is situation is secondary and pointless to focus...forest for the trees. You need to get your fingers doing the right thing first and the rest of your body and life will adjust for the sake of that to happen smoothly. The reason a guy sees your bad arm is because your fingers are too close to the bridge (as I said first). It's about your fingers. One that does good picado can do it on one of those African stick guitars with a few strings and no body, hanging down at your knees if you want, no elbow shoulder nonsense to observe. Or try ukulele picado...the idea is the same.

Staccato is about the rhythm and planting. The goal is to make efficient and fast reset action to prepare strokes, not only to stop the sound. The people that ask about the cross string ringing deal really don't get the point I guess. For them I say, "only work on ascending scales" ....with an eye roll. Always always always use metronome. Always, tv or no tv. Drum machines and loops are fine too if you MUST, but metronome is best.

Finally, learn to file your nails optimally. Be aware of your speed limits and work towards warming up, and perform only within your limits when music happens, with the goal in mind to improve little by little (i.e. Increase rhythmical control, dynamics and utimately speed comes with the rhythm awareness).

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 23 2016 2:30:36

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Thanks for clarifying Ricado. I don't practice picado enough.
Here is something with metronome and staccato.

Just recording this and it made me realise how my planting gets worse as I speed up so maybe best to just do more like the first bit. 1 note per beat.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 23 2016 8:41:20

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to ZaidRockso)

You look like you're on the right path for sure John, nice and clean, I just started trying to practice staccato and I'm terrible! lol
Keep doing what you're doing and you can call out JG

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2016 2:02:59

Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to johnnefastis)

quote:

Here is something with metronome and staccato.

Just recording this and it made me realise how my planting gets worse as I speed up so maybe best to just do more like the first bit. 1 note per beat.

I would emphasize the staccato even more so. I practice with full power and mute the string almost immediately. This way you are playing "fast" but obviously practice it at the speed you can control.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2016 19:11:50

hamia

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to Aretium)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aretium
I would emphasize the staccato even more so. I practice with full power and mute the string almost immediately. This way you are playing "fast" but obviously practice it at the speed you can control.

Well good luck with that but I would bet that 2 years of doing that will get you only a small improvement in picado. It seems like a good idea and something that should work but I found it one of the least beneficial exercises. I believe that the stacatto sound comes naturally from having a fast picado. And a flat and compact right hand seems to increase the staccato effect for some reason. I believe it could be due to the close proximity of the fingers to the string so that the rebounding string (which probably has a large component vibrating parallel to the soundboard) hits the finger as the finger comes in to pluck it and gets damped a good few milliseconds before the string is actually plucked.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 7:59:34

Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012

RE: Picado Advice (in reply to hamia)

quote:

Well good luck with that but I would bet that 2 years of doing that will get you only a small improvement in picado.

It's not all about the sound, it is about every movement being exactly the same and landing on the exact same spot. It does also develop power and a neat sound. I make sure I land exactly in between my nail and flesh. This way it doesn't matter the state of your nails. I think Grisha had a video of this.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 10:26:43