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RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path
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Mark2
Posts: 1868
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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 RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to payaso)
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As was mentioned, does anyone think they can learn to play classical music well on the violin, viola, cello, etc from books and videos? Maybe they do, I don't visit forums that discuss those things, but it would seem to me to be a rather absurd expectation. Same with flamenco guitar I think. But, I am an old dude who learned face to face from a maestro, and later studied with a half dozen other flamenco guitarists, face to face. When I really put it together, to the extent I was able, was after a few years in a dance school, then a few more playing for local dance groups. I know it's a brave new world and I could now get privates via Skype with top players in Spain, and once in a while someone comes along who seemingly really has it together without going through all that uh, traditional old fashioned BS, but I think the best way is still the old way for most folks. I don't think it is a dis-service to point that out to people who want to know.
Chester mentioned the cult thing, and I understand that not many want to go down that road, but I really believe that unless at some point you are ready to commit to a full immersion, wherever you might be and to what extent one is able, you aren't going to go very far. Frankly, if I had known at the beginning what was involved to reach the level I had hoped to attain, I might have left it alone.
quote:
ORIGINAL: payaso
Whenever anybody asks the foro about what books to look for as a help to learning flamenco guitar, the standard answer always seems to be something like ‘don’t buy books, they’re only for beginners, find a teacher, transcriptions are “wrong”, just learn from recordings without reading music or tab, go to Spain, it’ll take years of immersion in flamenco to get anywhere, just think how long it took Maestro Fulano’.
Is this really the most helpful advice? And is this the way the members who post this stuff really learned everything? Or could there be an element of snobbery at work here?
For the tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) who are keen to learn flamenco guitar, many will have neither the funds nor the ease of access to find a teacher. And how many good teachers are there outside Spain apart from in major urban centres?
Why, if this antipathy to books is so prevalent, is there also so much discussion on the foro about transcriptions, tabs and how to get them?
There are now several extremely helpful books on learning flamenco combined with CD’s and DVDs (just look on Amazon) which will meet the needs of many players very well – and for many years. If you can find and afford a good teacher in the flesh or online, you are unusually fortunate – and you may find that the teacher will recommend (as aids to learning material and techniques) the very books that some foro members seem to be so sniffy about.
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Date Sep. 16 2016 16:24:03
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
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quote:
Because his [Vicente Amigo's] recordings have been sliding away from Flamenco towards World Music (or musak, if you woke up with a bad liver) for years.
Exactly. I caught hell on the Foro for posting the following in January of this year: "Vicente Amigo is neither up to the standards of the past greats--Sabicas, Paco de Lucia, et.al,--nor the current up and comers like Antonio Rey. Vicente Amigo is an anodyne guitarist who is competent, but not great. His playing is the flamenco equivalent of elevator music."
That he has the capacity to rise above all that is irrelevant if he doesn't.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Sep. 17 2016 1:04:16
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to Ricardo)
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Amigo would be great if he would make a recording with as old fashioned of a singer as he could find and play less frilly. But as has been said, his production company wants to sell 'world music' and he has a market niche there now. Money puts kids through college and pays mortgages.
Probably seeing him play with a singer in a private setting would be great, probably even mind blowing, but his recordings have little interest for me beyond listening a few times and then spinning one occasionally if I have insomnia. That reminds me to read a book.
He is no doubt a great guitarist and he added something to the language modern guitar. I just don't see him reinventing himself in a way that would be very risky, but maybe he will yet surprise. Some people love his work as is, lately I find Melchor de Marchena's playing to be quite mind blowing.
Flamenco is like a building with a whole bunch of windows, and each window might have an interesting scene, but you can't in one life look in all the windows. So you decide which part of the edifice you want to explore. It's also fair to say parts of the building that look ugly to you are, well ugly.
-------------------
The other day I was looking at some artists work who is having a show in the US. I said I did not like it, that it reminded me of a Fruit of the Loom underwear commercial on TV about 35 years ago. Someone then told me if would only read about the artist and get th reasons behind why they did what they did I would change my mind and see it. Kind of not understanding that I was not against the artist personally, or had a lack of visual acuity or intellectual backing about the kind of work he makes, it's just that I don't like it. It's not my thing mainly because it is furry and fuzzy and made of furry fuzzy textiles. It simply repels me at a tactile level. Nothing more, nothing less.
It's possible my sensibility will change, and I might seek out looking at that work in two three years, because we do change and change back in terms of aesthetic values we like. Some music is fuzzy and cloying, some music is tough and redemptive.
It's ok not to like stuff. And you don't owe anyone an exegesis on why you don't fancy something.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Sep. 17 2016 1:59:49
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
Because his [Vicente Amigo's] recordings have been sliding away from Flamenco towards World Music (or musak, if you woke up with a bad liver) for years.
Exactly. I caught hell on the Foro for posting the following in January of this year: "Vicente Amigo is neither up to the standards of the past greats--Sabicas, Paco de Lucia, et.al,--nor the current up and comers like Antonio Rey. Vicente Amigo is an anodyne guitarist who is competent, but not great. His playing is the flamenco equivalent of elevator music."
That he has the capacity to rise above all that is irrelevant if he doesn't.
Bill
Since you brought it up again, Sabicas for me had some things that are indulgent and flashy guitar wise, when he wasn't just ripping off Montoya. Sort of kept the larger guitar genre of Segovia fans and guitar enthusiasts a bit ignorant of the artistic depth of flamenco (along with C. Montoya who was sometimes marketed along with Sabicas and friends). Doesn't mean that there is not more to it that is enjoyable and useful to learn. Vicente Amigo however has some very profound and deep things along with his innovations that really inspired flamencos of all ages, including the mentioned PDL. His early cante accompaniments were very influential and his composition for Camaron has him forever in gypsy sainthood status. New folks like Rey are quote his falsetas note by note in cases that are not just the general same vibe. He is not, however an evolving artist (such as PDL or Sanlucar) so we don't need to look to his later works for the more innovative things. Call it boring if one wants, but Sabicas played the same falsetas into the late 80's as he did in the 50's and out of respect, no body called it "boring" that was a flamenco enthusiast. V. Amigo deserves same respect IMO.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Sep. 17 2016 16:29:25
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