Santos Plans

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Santos Plans

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Njål Bendixen

Posts: 65
Joined: Aug. 25 2016

Santos Plans

Hi All

Do any of you know of any plans for Santos Hernandez flamenco guitars?

I already have 3 plans. David Merrin;s plan of 1934. Roy Courtnall's plan of 1933 and the Guild of American Luthier's plan of 1934.

Are there any other plans out there?

Njaal

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 14 2016 17:16:49

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Santos Plans (in reply to Njål Bendixen)

Here is a classical plan that can easily be modified to a flamenco guitar.

American Lutherie #115. Book and plan #68 By Jeffrey Elliot for the GAL.

www.luth.org

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 15 2016 18:11:34

Joan Maher

Posts: 213
Joined: Dec. 3 2013

RE: Santos Plans (in reply to Njål Bendixen)

Christopher Dean built a lovely looking copy of a Santos he repaired you can view here https://www.facebook.com/pg/Christopher-Dean-Guitars-185389024835522/photos/?tab=album&album_id=835031236537961

Rohan Lowe also made a repair and built a copy http://www.loweguitars.co.uk/index.php/portfolio/guitar-restoration/santos-hernandezrestoration

http://www.loweguitars.co.uk/index.php/portfolio/guitar-photo-gallery/1486-flamenco

Not sure if they published plans of the copies they made but you could always politely ask.

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Gracias!

Joan Josep Maher

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2017 12:09:21

Joan Maher

Posts: 213
Joined: Dec. 3 2013

RE: Santos Plans (in reply to Njål Bendixen)

Here's a beautiful sounding Santos.. https://youtu.be/wdob1iWSIhw

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Gracias!

Joan Josep Maher

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2017 19:53:57

pundi64

Posts: 234
Joined: Jul. 29 2016
From: Thailand

RE: Santos Plans (in reply to Njål Bendixen)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Njål Bendixen

Hi All

Do any of you know of any plans for Santos Hernandez flamenco guitars?

I already have 3 plans. David Merrin;s plan of 1934. Roy Courtnall's plan of 1933 and the Guild of American Luthier's plan of 1934.

Are there any other plans out there?

Njaal

I have a Santos Hernandez 1933 re-production, has that same great sound that is in the YouTube video above. But institutes mechanical tuners.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (4)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2017 0:10:41

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Santos Plans (in reply to pundi64)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pundi64

I have a Santos Hernandez 1933 re-production, has that same great sound that is in the YouTube video above. But institutes mechanical tuners.

This maker fretted the fingerboard before installing it on the guitar?

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2017 1:00:41

pundi64

Posts: 234
Joined: Jul. 29 2016
From: Thailand

RE: Santos Plans (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

quote:

ORIGINAL: pundi64

I have a Santos Hernandez 1933 re-production, has that same great sound that is in the YouTube video above. But institutes mechanical tuners.

This maker fretted the fingerboard before installing it on the guitar?

So it would seem, but I think it was just for a picture shoot.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2017 1:32:27

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Santos Plans (in reply to Njål Bendixen)

The fan brace pattern in the 1951 Barbero drawing is also derived directly from Santos. I've seen a Santos with the back off for restoration and the bracing was verbatim the '51 Barbero.

I have the plantilla of that Santos and it can be built with the '51 Barbero fan patterns and Voila! Santos.

Lenador has one that I built that way, and a few other Foro members also. It also does not mean it's a Santos copy, you would have to have a Santos in your possession in order to make a fine copy. From plans you're going to get a Santos derived instrument or an in the style of Santos guitar, which is about as good as you can do. To really copy one is another thing.

I call my work Santos influenced, he's the main maker and lineage I follow, but they are my guitars based on his principles. Not copies, but extensions of that school of thought.

It's also been said that '51 bracing is too difficult for beginners, I disagree. The caveat is, don't make the top too thin on the first one. The space between the tip of the bridge wing and the edge of the lower bout needs to be robust, but carefully thinned. If you make the top too thick you still get a good guitar, but it will be not be a top that has been thinned to the edge of risk. A very stiff top works well with that design because it can take the thinning it requires to make that design get edgy.

If you think of fan systems as chess openings, you're not going to master one with one game. None of the fan systems can be understood with one guitar, so you go into it knowing the basic strengths and pitfalls of each design. The 51's main issue is don't make the top really thin until you get a feel for the bridge and top flex or deflection after the box is put together.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2017 4:32:33

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Santos Plans (in reply to Njål Bendixen)

So here you managed to turn the discussion into one of your favorite subjects. The 51 Barbero plan..... Now we just need "someone" to turn the discussion in favor of the Reyes plan. Just joking, so dont kill me.

I´m one of those who have said that 51 Barbero is not the easyest for beginners. And thats because I´ve seen a couple of guitars made using that plan that had soundboard shape issues. Where the soundboard was dipping towards the edges of the box. It could be because the soundboard was to thin as you say and it could also be because the bridge has been domed to much. To much dome on the bridge makes pressure on the soundboard to have a negative dome near the edges.

I personally prefer promoting the 34 Santos plan that Brune drew for beginners. So straight forward, robust sounding and so on. A very good starting point for exploring the world of spanish stick-layout.

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2017 7:41:44

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Santos Plans (in reply to Njål Bendixen)

Plantilla, solera and bracing are Santos'.
The guitars made by Barbero in the last years have the substantial difference of a thicker top, probably as a consequence of the nylon strings.
In this sense I agree with Anders that it's not the best plan to start with.
We shouldn't forget that Barbero wasn't a direct pupil of Santos but a varnisher for Ramirez, and mostly learned from the guitars, soleras and tools found in the shop of Aduana 23.
In fact Barbero used mostly the '34 Santos' plantilla and a bracing pattern already used by Santos before.
The '24 guitar of Santos used by Luisa Walker had already a bracing pattern with the same proportions of the bracing pattern used by Barbero later (just with 7 struts).
Interestingly enough in that guitar Santos used a transverse strut under the bridge.

Arcangel Fernandez kept the plantilla used by Santos but abandoned quite soon the thick tops of Barbero, coming back to the thin tops of Santos.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2017 9:14:58

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Santos Plans (in reply to Echi)

quote:

Arcangel Fernandez kept the plantilla used by Santos but abandoned quite soon the thick tops of Barbero, coming back to the thin tops of Santos.

For everyone's information, Santos also built thick tops.

I gave an appraisal for a fellow who owned a 1932 Santos and the top was 3/32" thick, spruce with rosewood sides and back. It was originally built for a Mexican movie actor, which his son inherited....very nice instrument in original condition.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2017 12:40:50

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Santos Plans (in reply to Echi)

quote:

Plantilla, solera and bracing are Santos'.
The guitars made by Barbero in the last years have the substantial difference of a thicker top, probably as a consequence of the nylon strings.
In this sense I agree with Anders that it's not the best plan to start with.
We shouldn't forget that Barbero wasn't a direct pupil of Santos but a varnisher for Ramirez, and mostly learned from the guitars, soleras and tools found in the shop of Aduana 23.
In fact Barbero used mostly the '34 Santos' plantilla and a bracing pattern already used by Santos before.
The '24 guitar of Santos used by Luisa Walker had already a bracing pattern with the same proportions of the bracing pattern used by Barbero later (just with 7 struts).
Interestingly enough in that guitar Santos used a transverse strut under the bridge.

Arcangel Fernandez kept the plantilla used by Santos but abandoned quite soon the thick tops of Barbero, coming back to the thin tops of Santos.

You did not read what I wrote. Or you did not understand it. Most annoying.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2017 14:28:53

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Santos Plans (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

So here you managed to turn the discussion into one of your favorite subjects. The 51 Barbero plan..... Now we just need "someone" to turn the discussion in favor of the Reyes plan. Just joking, so dont kill me.

That is what I was calculating would happen. Then I would castle, and attack the "Ruy Reyes" with a fianchettoed bishop development saying "Oh yes I have built a 1969 Reyes as a direct copy several times and it is better then Vicente's. " Then you move out a knight and protect the 1934 Santos from Tom, whilst I continue a pigheaded Sicillian against Ruy Reyes never letting him have an inch of the center. Then Tom wallops his queen down a diagonal too early in the game and you chase her back with a bishop, but really he set a trap for you because he worked out a line you never thought of and you lose the knight three moves later. While I keep on the Sicilian 51 defense like a guard dog tied to a tree.

Then John says, piss on you whipper snappers, I'll play all yous guys blindfolded! I have 4000 years of experience at guitar hanky panky I built the gol-derned pyramid of Khufu and I make my own wine. So there you punks.

Then John Rey pokes his head in and reminds everyone to take their anti-psychotic meds.

It's all in a normal day on the foro.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2017 14:44:45

eccullen

Posts: 97
Joined: Aug. 14 2007

RE: Santos Plans (in reply to Joan Maher)

At 4:38, a santos model by a devoted maker of replica guitars. I've played several of his classical replicas, which were terrific, but can't speak to how effectively they channel the sound and spirit of the originals.

http://www.guitarsalon.com/blog/?s=weissenrieder+interview

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2017 15:34:40