top doming, neck angle and relief

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benros

Posts: 144
Joined: Aug. 27 2016

top doming, neck angle and relief

hey guys, im building my first two flamencas at the moment and would like to discuss with you some questions i have about the doming of the top, the neck angle and the tapering of the fingerboard in relation to each other or i.o.w. all the different crucial points to consider to come out with a playable flamenco setup.
my reference instrument is a domingo esteso blanca replica, very light build (only 1150 gr. with mechanical tuners), with a huge dome (circa 5mm under the bridge) and 2 mm neck angle and slightly tapered fingerboard. the action and the bridge is under 7mm but 3.5 mm at the 12th fret (low e) and seems to me that i would come up with a more playable action at the 12th fret if i would build either without neck angle or with less doming. years ago i have read an gal article from eugene clark about his building style (building spanish guitars was the title, i guess) which seemed to me very radical, but straight forward and plausible in many ways. clark says there, that the old builders (torres, santos hernandez, domingo esteso etc.) build with big domes but without neck angle and fingetboardtapering (in difference to the most newer spanish builders, which build nearly without doming and therefore with neckangle). but i cant find the article anymore and cant remember what he said about the hight of the doming. what i can remember is, that he said, that the doming is a crucial point.
so, what are your thoughts/experiences on/about that? how much doming and/or neck angle do you build with?

greetings,
ben

p.s.: i would like to come up with a 7-8mm action at the bridge and 2.5-3 mm at the 12th fret.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2016 9:53:59

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)

quote:

years ago i have read an gal article from eugene clark about his building style (building spanish guitars was the title, i guess) which seemed to me very radical, but straight forward and plausible in many ways. clark says there, that the old builders (torres, santos hernandez, domingo esteso etc.) build with big domes but without neck angle and fingetboardtapering (in difference to the most newer spanish builders, which build nearly without doming and therefore with neckangle).

Eugene is a good guy but if you want to build in the modern approach I would suggest that you contact the Guild of American Luthiers and ask Tim Olsen which guitar plan would be the best for a beginning builder. www.tim@luth.org

Latest Plan
Plan #73 1934 Santos Hernandez
Flamenco Guitar by R.E. Brune

GAL Instrument Plan #73 1934 Santos Hernandez Flamenco Guitar

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2016 15:43:32

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benros
with a huge dome (circa 5mm under the bridge) and 2 mm neck angle and slightly tapered fingerboard. the action and the bridge is under 7mm but 3.5 mm at the 12th fret (low e) and seems to me that i would come up with a more playable action at the 12th fret if i would build either without neck angle or with less doming.

I can see why your action is too high at the 12th with that much doming and 2mm deflection with a tapered fingerboard (assuming you meant the taper is from nut to sound hole).

Some people like a domed tops and some don't. We've built both ways and prefer about 3mm dome at the bridge. This allows a deflection of about 1.5-2mm. If the deflection is not perfect a slight tapering of the fingerboard can be used to make sure the action is perfect.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2016 18:25:49

benros

Posts: 144
Joined: Aug. 27 2016

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)

thank you tom and john for your responses.
tom, i have seen the gal barbero plan drawn by mr. brune some time ago and im pretty sure, that there is no information about the doming of the soundboard in it. is there information about it in the reyes plan you have drawn?
anyway, i really would appreciate to hear, what you have to say about this topic.
thank you john for sharing your knowledge. yes, i meant the taper from nut to soundhole. i see that the prominent dome plus the normal neck angle/deflection is the reason for the 3.5 mm at the 12th fret. i like the doming, cause the domed guitars ive heared and played have a very breathing, pumping, open and raw sound, very good playability and are very responsive, alive.
what clark suggests in his article, is that the oldschool builders have built without any neck deflection or fingerboardtaper, just with soundboard doming and thats the way he builds too. my interest is, is it possible to build this way without coming up with a guitar with too much buzzing?
what kind of setup do you get with your 3mm dome/1.5-2mm deflection combination?
any other thoughts, suggestions?

greetings,
ben

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2016 20:58:28

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benros

i like the doming, cause the domed guitars ive heared and played have a very breathing, pumping, open and raw sound, very good playability and are very responsive, alive.
what clark suggests in his article, is that the oldschool builders have built without any neck deflection or fingerboardtaper, just with soundboard doming and thats the way he builds too. my interest is, is it possible to build this way without coming up with a guitar with too much buzzing?
what kind of setup do you get with your 3mm dome/1.5-2mm deflection combination?
any other thoughts, suggestions?

greetings,
ben

What's "too much buzzing"? I played and taught flamenco guitar professionally for over 40 years and can say that players have different opinions about what is too much buzzing.

We try to set our guitars about 2.8mm at the 12th fret sixth string. I can't recall one that was over that measurement and they seem to play fine in my opinion.

We built guitars with essentially flat tops with lots of taper for many years and were happy with the results. The guitars had very stiff right hand action, excellent trebles but rather weak basses. We found that customers preferred a more robust voice (more bass and mid range) and more limber right hand action so we switched to a domed top. After a lot of experimenting with top thickness, amount of dome, bracing, etc. we're very happy with the current design. I think the current guitars are more uniform and overall better than our earlier ones.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2016 23:57:49

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)

I'm curious too about what the professional builders of this foro will say on this topic.
According to me this is a fundamental aspect as it works in relation with the top thickness and somehow affects aspects as the pulsacion and the focus of the note.
In my building I use a slight doming of 1,5 mm at the bridge and a gentle slope behind the bridge.
I started doing so after noticing that some my favourite flamenco guitars are almost flat (Reyes, Conde and Manzanero). My Manzanero (which is a very flat Barbero like guitar) has fantastic basses and focus.
I'm well aware that a good builder can reach a result in many ways as it is a matter of balance.
Barba uses a pronounced doming and there was a good doming also in my Lopez Bellido and my Gerundino.

I'm not expert enough to say what feature works better for me, and how exactly doming/thickness/ bracing concur to a certain result.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2016 6:50:21

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)

While I understand the discussion reagarding the dome, I am surprised nobody mentioned that the target setup is achieve via the SOLERA when you attach the neck and back to the top. My understanding of this topic was that it was this procedure that determined how things would turn out, and that hitting 7mm (or any exact number) precisely is not normally possible, but most luthiers claim .5 mm +/- (with 3mm or less at 12th the goal). Any fine adjustments would had to be done with shaving or otherwise altering the fingerboard after this point.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2016 12:53:04

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)

It is of course correct in case you use the traditional spanish method, which assembles the guitar face down.
In this case the solera is scoped to welcome a top ( which will be domed when gluing the braces) and the neck is glued to the top at a certain angle. You can set the angle a little (by moving it up or down and bending a little the sides) just until you glue the back.
My understanding is that we are still discussing of the project: how much doming you plan to have and as a consequence how to set the ramp for the neck.
As soon as you decide what doming or neck angle you whisk for, then you will determine how to make your solera.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2016 13:07:02

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)

quote:

tom, i have seen the gal barbero plan drawn by mr. brune some time ago and im pretty sure, that there is no information about the doming of the soundboard in it. is there information about it in the reyes plan you have drawn?
anyway, i really would appreciate to hear, what you have to say about this topic.

This is something that would require a lot of explanation but if you decide what effect you want with doming or a flat top then work from that vantage point and adjust the action to fit the top's function.

I don't believe that the Brune Barbero plan is good for a beginner. But it could be that the new drawing of the 1934 Santos might be.

Structurally, I think the 2003 Reyes plan is better as it is a more modern approach with certain affinity for what guitarists are looking for today.

But many of these plans are good for the aficionado to try out, to gain certain knowledge of how guitars work.

I have yet to receive a modern Conde flamenco guitar to look at; to perhaps draw a plan from.

In closing: I prefer a flat top because I can make the sound work whatever I want it to be by fine tuning the fan braces to get certain propio sello with the bass and trebles.

I might add that my bridges have a slight curve to pull the top up a little at the bridge location.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2016 13:58:33

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I am surprised nobody mentioned that the target setup is achieve via the SOLERA when you attach the neck and back to the top.

Not exactly correct. The solera is the scooped out form where the top is held while gluing bracing. Some people also set the neck angle and glue the sides and back on the solera but not everyone. For convenience we use two other jigs, one for gluing the sides and neck to the top and another for gluing the back.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2016 14:35:23

benros

Posts: 144
Joined: Aug. 27 2016

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)

after what have been said so far, it seems to me, that flattop and domed top flamencas are two different approaches, from which the domed is the more oldschool traditional style, the flattop the modern approach. big dome without neckangle as the one extreme, flattop with big neckangle, the other one and in between mixtures of both (slightly domed tops plus moderate neck angles). the domed top flamencas which i have seen so far where also much thinner build, very light guitars (all not much more than 1kg weight), also mostly smaller dimensioned and with very deep tuned body resonance (zero tone? i dont know the right word in english), the best were at 'e'.
john, sure, your right, what is too much depends on personal preference. for me, too much buzzing means, that i cant play the guitar with moderate attack without buzzing.
echi, how much neckangle do you need with your slightly domed top? do you taper the fingerboard? what are your setup outcomes?
tom, you build flattops with equally thicknessed fingerboards. how much neckangle do you need, to get the right setup? do you build without any relief at the basstringside of the fingerboard? you suggested, that the flattop/modern approach is more affine to what guitarists look for today? what, would you say, are the main differences of both building styles in terms of sound and playability? what are the advantages of the flattop flamencas over the domed ones?
is there someone out there you builds with more than 3mm dome?
thank you all?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 3 2016 20:57:10

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)

quote:

tom, you build flattops with equally thicknessed fingerboards. how much neckangle do you need, to get the right setup? do you build without any relief at the basstringside of the fingerboard? you suggested, that the flattop/modern approach is more affine to what guitarists look for today? what, would you say, are the main differences of both building styles in terms of sound and playability?

I try for about 2.5 MM angle from the nut, but you have to center the box on a flat level to the top edge of the sound hole.

I relieve the bass side a little at the 7th fret and taper it toward the nut and then toward the 10th fret, and leave the treble fairly flat.This technique helps eliminate a certain amount of string buzz on the bass side.

Dome is OK but I think it takes more finesse to get the articulation correct. I get more top flap with a flat top, and this seems to quicken the picado and thumb work, which provides a certain pull for alzapua; especially on the treble side.

Dome tops have a tendency to cause the strings to bounce but this can be controlled by expert fine tuning, which is not a problem for me, but it might be for others who are not familiar with how to manage it.

If you are looking for a deeper bass end, then this is easily managed with a flat top, without having to create a booming sound.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 3 2016 21:57:52

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

Some people like a domed tops and some don't. We've built both ways and prefer about 3mm dome at the bridge. This allows a deflection of about 1.5-2mm. If the deflection is not perfect a slight tapering of the fingerboard can be used to make sure the action is perfect.

TRUE

quote:

...what clark suggests in his article, is that the oldschool builders have built without any neck deflection or fingerboardtaper, just with soundboard doming

FALSE

quote:

While I understand the discussion reagarding the dome, I am surprised nobody mentioned that the target setup is achieve via the SOLERA when you attach the neck and back to the top. My understanding of this topic was that it was this procedure that determined how things would turn out, and that hitting 7mm (or any exact number) precisely is not normally possible, but most luthiers claim .5 mm +/- (with 3mm or less at 12th the goal). Any fine adjustments would had to be done with shaving or otherwise altering the fingerboard after this point.

TRUE

quote:

I don't believe that the Brune Barbero plan is good for a beginner.

FALSE

quote:

Not exactly correct. The solera is the scooped out form where the top is held while gluing bracing. Some people also set the neck angle and glue the sides and back on the solera but not everyone. For convenience we use two other jigs, one for gluing the sides and neck to the top and another for gluing the back.

TRUE

quote:

that flattop and domed top flamencas are two different approaches, from which the domed is the more oldschool traditional style, the flattop the modern approach

FALSE

quote:

Dome tops have a tendency to cause the strings to bounce but this can be controlled by expert fine tuning,

FALSE

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 5 2016 1:51:08

Njål Bendixen

Posts: 65
Joined: Aug. 25 2016

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)

I have just read Eugene Clarks article for American Lutherie (92). Very interesting article. However he does not make his guitars flat with a parallel fingerboard. He does something strange. Instead of relieving the fingerboard tapering it from the 12 fret to the soundhole, he depresses the front of the insstrument to accommodate a straight fingerboard, even if the neck has an angle relative to the plane of the soundboard. Very odd, but it obviously works for him!!!

There are no rules, everything works, but everything depends on everything else. So choose your amount of doming, and then work out what neck angle you need. There is a hierarchy of criteria. Doming is more important than neck angle for sound.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 5 2016 13:17:56

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)

I wouldn't say it's odd. I saw it done in other guitars.
Isn't it the method in the Bogdanovich book btw?
When you apply a certain angle to the neck, either you shape the back side of the fretboard or you must necessarily make a depression on the upper area of the top: you can easily notice if this is the case of your guitar, by looking at the shape of the soundhole.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 5 2016 14:06:36

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to Njål Bendixen)

quote:

There are no rules, everything works,

You got that right, and I think that with the evolution of the flat top there was a concerted effort to design certain efficiency with tonal aspects to round out sound with a simple build. Domed tops gave some resistance against string torque but with proper designs it was not necessary to tighten up with a domed top for structural stability.

I think Art Overholtzer proved this with his 1960's grand champion classical guitar. I built a few copies of his flat top design in the 80's and they were marvelous guitars.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 5 2016 15:57:59

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

quote:

I don't believe that the Brune Barbero plan is good for a beginner.

FALSE

Well Stephen, let's face it, you are just a better guitar maker than me. The not slavish copy I sent to RE Brune for resale took me 2 months to finalize the voice. It was very good but it took too long and too much hair pulling to make it happen.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 5 2016 16:04:41

f.j.w.

Posts: 20
Joined: Aug. 20 2016

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)

Hi All

I am also building my first guitar, and this thread is exactly about what I was going to ask about.

I have just go David Merrin's drawing of a 1934 Santos Hernandez. The bridge is 7.5mm tall (withoug saddle). My teatchers guitar (1997 Ramirez) has a much lower bridge of only 6.0mm. So what should the string height be just in front of the bridge (soundboard to underside of the string) at the treble side and at the bass side?

What should the string height be at the 12th fret, at the treble side and the bass side?

Also in considering the geometry of the instrument, how much can it be assumed that the instrument moves and adjusts itself with the tension of the strings? By this I mean that if an instrument is made so that it has a string height of lets say 2.0mm at the 12 fret on the treble side before it has been strung up for the first time. Then how much will it change once the strings have been put on the first time?

Thanks to all
Frank JW

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 5 2016 22:05:06

f.j.w.

Posts: 20
Joined: Aug. 20 2016

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)

Just a thought. If a 1934 Santos bridge is 7.5mm tall and a 1967 Ramirez bridge is 6.0mm tall is this a general trend that older bridges are taller and modern bridges lower? Does this have something to do with development of playing technique?

Frank jw

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 5 2016 22:40:48

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)

quote:

quote:
While I understand the discussion reagarding the dome, I am surprised nobody mentioned that the target setup is achieve via the SOLERA when you attach the neck and back to the top. My understanding of this topic was that it was this procedure that determined how things would turn out, and that hitting 7mm (or any exact number) precisely is not normally possible, but most luthiers claim .5 mm +/- (with 3mm or less at 12th the goal). Any fine adjustments would had to be done with shaving or otherwise altering the fingerboard after this point.

Hay 'ta

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 5 2016 23:50:49

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)

quote:

Just a thought. If a 1934 Santos bridge is 7.5mm tall and a 1967 Ramirez bridge is 6.0mm tall is this a general trend that older bridges are taller and modern bridges lower? Does this have something to do with development of playing technique?

It's not a trend but a maker's choice (and a player's of course) b
The market standards more or less are from 7 to 9 mm at the bridge and 2.5 to 3.5 mm at the 12th fret even though there are perfectly fine guitars with different settings.
Old Ramirez, Sanchis and the old Conde were quite low at the bridge.
Now the market trend is for a couple of mm more (in order to correct bent necks or other problems after).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2016 7:19:05

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2016 9:04:51

benros

Posts: 144
Joined: Aug. 27 2016

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)

hey tom, you said:

quote:

I relieve the bass side a little at the 7th fret and taper it toward the nut and then toward the 10th fret, and leave the treble fairly flat.This technique helps eliminate a certain amount of string buzz on the bass side.

that sounds very interesting. did i understand you right, you begin from the 7th fret and go down from there to nut and 10th fret? how much relieve do you make at the 7th fret and how much at the nut and 10th fret circa?
and another question to the dometopbuilders: how much springback do i have to calcute? in other words, when i want to come out for instance with a 3 mm dome under rhe bridge, how deep do i have carve the solera in that area?
greetings, ben

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 14 2016 7:53:36

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)

You shouldn't need to worry about spring back. Some builder use a clamp to push the sound board into the solera dish while putting the guitar together others don't

You can help support the arch but curving the underneath of the bridge.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 14 2016 8:03:39

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)

quote:

Hey Tom that sounds very interesting. did i understand you right, you begin from the 7th fret and go down from there to nut and 10th fret? how much relieve do you make at the 7th fret and how much at the nut and 10th fret circa?

It varies with the top movement. But you can start with a .5 mm relief and go from there as it is needed. And taper toward the nut without taking wood off the nut area. The basic is to adjust what the guitar needs.

I've seen guitars that needed more relief.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 14 2016 9:44:11

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to Echi)

I didn't have good results with either flat nor extensive domings (2mm+) I tried both and with the 2mm+ doming i found the soundboard mooves kind of uncontrolled (just like a man running with a belly that shakes during running). With the flat soundboard i found that no doming restricts the soundboard from moving. The tone get's too thight and basses are vanishing even when the soundboard as such was built correctly. The same is valid for a soundboard that is domed only in it's lateral direction bot not lengthwise. It restricted my soundboard from moving resulting in a dry and tight tone. So, as a conclusion i became aware that slight domings of about 1.5 to 2mm are leading to the best results in my guitars. So i will rebuild my solera in order to get that amount of doming into my system.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2019 11:28:21