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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2016 21:36:45

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Finger stretching (in reply to Guest)

Wasabi - that's a great pseudonym you got there, nice and peppery - welcome to the foro.

This isn't a stretching thing, but is a very useful warm up exercise. Or perhaps this is stretching, only dynamic stretching and not static stretching. What ever it is it's damn good to run through it before playing...
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=138798&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=warmup&tmode=&smode=&s=#139026

Years ago I had this book, until I gave it to my cousin. There's a whole section on stretching - not just the hands but the whole body. There's some good stuff in there.
https://www.amazon.com/Healthy-Guitarist-Instructional-Virginia-Azagra/dp/8493472921

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2016 1:23:17

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Finger stretching (in reply to Guest)

I'm not sure what chord you're talking about but, before you start doing a bunch of stretching exercices, you may just want to play around with your fretting-hand thumb. Where and how you place your thumb behind the neck can have a huge impact on what you're able to reach/not reach with the other fingers. Most people place it somewhere between i and m or between m and a, depending on anatomy. What's more important is that it should be somewhere around the middle of the neck (a lot of beginners place it higher up, closer to the 6th string, and this really limits your range of movement). I'm sure you'll find plenty of ressources on where to place the thumb, just thought I'd mention it coz it may be the cause of your problem here. Of course, stretching can also help for a range of other issues, I'm just not sure this is what your problem is here.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2016 2:53:35

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2016 4:53:46

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Finger stretching (in reply to Guest)

Got it. One thing you can is some variations on the basic chromatic exercices.

Take for example the classic 4-notes per string chromatic exercices. Say you're playing 7-8-9-10 frets on each string both ascending and descending. If you want to stretch between i and m, then instead of playing 7(i)-8(m)-9(a)-10(x), play 6(i)-8(m)-9(a)-10(x). Similarly, if you want to work on stretching between m and a, you could play 7(i)-8(m)-10(a)-11(x).

Alternately, You could stay on one string and 1(i)-2(m)-1(i)-3(m)-1(i)-4(m)-1(i)-3(m)-1(i)-2(m). Up to fourth fret is a stretch, the point is just to go up as far as you can, while always keeping the i pressed down on the first fret. Of course you could also start out higher on the neck, the stretches will be less difficult the higher up on the neck you go.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2016 6:06:55

Brendan

Posts: 353
Joined: Oct. 30 2010

RE: Finger stretching (in reply to Guest)

You could use an easier version of the same chord until your hand gets more limber. Leave off your second finger (i.e. fourth string is open). Or for a more bulerias sound, put your third finger where your second finger currently is (so the third string is open).

Don't force your hand to do anything.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2016 8:39:58

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2016 11:25:05

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Finger stretching (in reply to Guest)

I'm with Piwin, likely thumb placement has a lot to do with it. On really stretchy chords my thumb will be down by the bottom of the neck. If Manolo Sanlucar and Paco Peña can do it you can.

I always felt like small hands was an advantage for the right hand, they look efficient. I have long fingers and I felt like they were always too awkward, like 7' tall ballet dancer.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2016 15:48:23

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2016 17:02:37

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Finger stretching (in reply to Guest)

It takes time for your fingers to be able to spread apart properly.
Exercises are good but be careful not to overextend your hand.
Remember these are still muscles and need to be trained gradually -- everyone has trouble in the beginning.

The "trick" is practicing consistently.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2016 18:24:37

Brendan

Posts: 353
Joined: Oct. 30 2010

RE: Finger stretching (in reply to Piwin)

quote:

Similarly, if you want to work on stretching between m and a, you could play 7(i)-8(m)-10(a)-11(x).

This is a bad idea. Stretching m and a apart can do permanent damage. The left hand is like a four-man defence. The two on the outsides should be as mobile as possible. The two in the middle should never be very far apart.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2016 10:05:11

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Finger stretching (in reply to Brendan)

Any stretch can be harmful if not done properly. As for stretching a and m, it is probably not the most useful stretch for most people, unless you are particularly fond of 4-note-per-string scales like me. I've been using this exercice for over 15 years and it has worked quite well without any damage at all. Not to say you're not right in saying it may be more dangerous than other stretches. Only that, if you stick to the rule of never forcing your hand too much, I see no reason why this would be "a bad idea".

Similarly there are many other kinds of stretches that have the potential of causing permanent damage, be it to the back or elsewhere. Done properly, with a prior warm-up, they are in fact quite helpful.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2016 10:40:31

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Finger stretching (in reply to Guest)

quote:

you are particularly fond of 4-note-per-string scales like me

Alright Holdsworth -- what fingerings do you use? Just in case one of us 3-note-per-string pleebs gets curious..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2016 15:47:57

Kiko_Roca

Posts: 82
Joined: Apr. 25 2016
From: Midwest, USA

RE: Finger stretching (in reply to Guest)

Keep sliding the capo up till you get it where you can make the stretch comfortable. Play there for a bit, then back it down a fret and play there for a bit. Next day play at the new spot for a bit, then back it down one more, and so on. That's the best way to go about the stretch imo - gradually with however long it takes to be comfortable in the new position. But there are a lot of different ways to play a "B-flat" chord at 1st position: XX3331; XX3330; X13330; X13030; X10330; etc. You can try a different one in the meantime.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2016 15:57:30

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Finger stretching (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wasabi

I don't think overall finger length is the real killer - more that they won't spread far enough apart - quickly. Especially I and M fingers in this case. Continuing with the rather brutal stretching exercises for now.

Many beginners have this problem, thumb is first issue but until the whole arm orientation is realized, it doesn't always help at first. Next look at your wrist and elbow. Think of fingers coming in from in front of the fingerboard rather than up from below. Also use the capo in higher positions. If you can make stretches up high, lower the capo one fret each day you practice. (Edit just like KIKO just said above me!

)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2016 16:09:07

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Finger stretching (in reply to chester)

It wasn't meant to be condescending. Not at all. In fact the entire reason I use 4-note patterns is because of my own limitations with getting the trebles to sound right in improvisation (so I tend to gravitate towards the bass string whenever possible, hence the need to cover more "ground" on just those strings). I was just pointing out that I'm not sure this kind of flexibility is all that useful in general, and even less in flamenco. I'm trying to find examples of where it could be useful in flamenco and can't find that many, except perhaps the beginning of Paco's tremolo in "Reflejo de Luna" where there's a two fret stretch between a and m.

Personally I use 4-note patterns mainly as a way to move from the middle of the neck to the top using 2 or 3 strings tops (descending I usually just stick to 3-note patterns with the odd open string if available in the scale). Since I'm starting from the middle, I just use imax fingering, hence the need for that stretch. Lower down on the neck this would be impossible to pull off (at least for me it would), and I think people usually use imxx or iaxx (im if half step and ia if full step). Or alternately iimx or iiax.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2016 16:26:13

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2016 18:53:47

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Finger stretching (in reply to Piwin)

I wasn't suggesting you were condescending.

Do you use a 4-note-per-string system (like the 3-note-per-string positions/modes) or do you just make it up on the fly?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2016 0:44:36

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Finger stretching (in reply to chester)

Oh god. I've reached that point where I see things between the lines when there is nothing there.

Sorry about that.

Um, no I don't really use a grid system. Though that shouldn't be hard to work out if you just use the enharmonic notes between two strings (repeating one note on each string change on whichever scale you're playing).

The way I was taught to play scales was fairly unusual. My teacher would make me memorize the interval sequence of a scale. Then he'd ask me to chose any note, with any finger, on the fretboard. He'd then say, like, this is 5th degree of the scale, now find your way down to the root. And I'd have to find as many ways to get down to that root note (and every possible location of that root note). The only rule was to keep a proper left hand position with all four fingers over four frets. Then we'd do the same thing starting on the same position but with a different finger. After that he'd suggest another "end note", like, this is the 2nd degree, work your way up to the 6th degree one octave higher, etc. etc. As a result, I never really learned any grid patterns. There is some overlap and I do end up using some patterns, like the 3-note per string patterns, but it's not something I pay attention to, I'm focused on where I want to end up on the neck and I'll play according to that "end note" I'm aiming for. Don't know if that makes any sense. It was a pretty slow way to learn compared to grid systems but it has the advantage of never boxing you in.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2016 6:28:43

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Finger stretching (in reply to Piwin)

Sounds like a cool game. Definitely more interesting than memorizing those seven patterns (although I remember getting fluent in those pretty fast).

quote:

Oh god. I've reached that point where I see things between the lines when there is nothing there.

There was something between the lines, it just wasn't aggression - https://www.amazon.com/Allan-Holdsworth-Just-Curious-Transcription/dp/0769220150

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2016 6:39:28

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Finger stretching (in reply to chester)

Woah I had completely forgotten about that one. This brings me back to the good ol' days where I'd spend the day rewinding his REH video on the VCR. I read in the papers not too long ago that the last VCR manufacturer was stopping its production. The end of an era!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2016 9:58:23