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What are your thougts of a sycamore and cedar combo?   You are logged in as Guest
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Earloflondon

 

Posts: 21
Joined: Jul. 6 2016
 

What are your thougts of a sycamore ... 
I've been thinking of combining a premium grade western red cedar top with solid sycamore back and sides for a 650 maybe 660 full scale flamenco with Santos bracing pattern. I am expecting a percussive as well as mellow sound with very thin top plate treated with vernica bianca this time with very rich albumen composition and finished with a very thin film of amber varnish. I would very much like to apply cashew resin but the solution is not available as guitar polishing outside of Japan I suppose.


Courtesy of reynoldsguitars
http://www.reynoldsguitars.com/images/Santosbr.jpg

What do you think of this project guys?

Any toughts are wellcome
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 10 2016 15:52:24
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: What are your thougts of a sycam... (in reply to Earloflondon) 
I think you should just do it and take copious notes.

Also, take pics.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 14 2016 17:29:29
 
Earloflondon

 

Posts: 21
Joined: Jul. 6 2016
 

RE: What are your thougts of a sycam... (in reply to Earloflondon) 
A meticoulous luthier friend of mine warned me of the sustain and resonance capabilities of cedar. I experienced with my modification of a cedar classical that the vernica bianca application misteriously both suppressed the sustain and gave a clearer and percussive sound. That one was an overapplication of the material from outside. This time I'll apply more both from inside and outside and will put a stronger mix of albumen and resin. Sealed with shellac.I am also expecting a harder shell from the application of amber varnish. The good thing is I will start both projects at the same time and I will have more time saved in the construction process.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 15 2016 9:50:38
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: What are your thougts of a sycam... (in reply to Earloflondon) 
No disrespect, but it sounds like you're overthinking it. I'm not sure what your building experience is but I'll kind of take a middle road here just so I don't over/under explain and offend.

Most cedar tops are finnicky and you have to make them thicker than a spruce top. In most blind tests you really can't identify spruce or cedar if well constructed.

As for the vernica blanca, I would guess that the top of that guitar was built thicker than a guitar that would be a luthier made guitar. Add to that the thickness of the finish and the top probably wasn't humming as much as it could. Poly finishes or thick nitro can choke the bass, muck up the midrange, and pretty much leave a plucky plastically high string sound.

If you remove that you'll take off some wood too with the sanding. This will usually liven up the top and give it some more flex. The reduction in mass likely contributes to a reduction of sustain. I don't think the vernica blanca is the key ingredient to the difference in sound. Those finishes are very hard and very stiff so I don't believe a natural resin product would get as much damping effect unless it's just kinda gummy and sticky and wet.

Also, why are you going to the trouble? French polish is a perfectly traditional and old school method. You can do garnet shellac for the redder look if you like. You don't have to do any sanding if you want it to have that textured organic feel.

If you thickness the soundboard right and brace it well then you should be able to get the desired results from that rather than mopping some goo on there to compensate.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 24 2016 0:51:43
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
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RE: What are your thougts of a sycam... (in reply to Earloflondon) 
quote:

I've been thinking of combining a premium grade western red cedar top with solid sycamore back and sides for a 650 maybe 660 full scale flamenco with Santos bracing pattern.


Well, first I would ask what Santos pattern are you using, and second I would like to know what price would you want to sell the guitar, if you were going to sell.

I can't afford to use other woods than the recommended cypress or rosewood since my guitars require it due to the prices I charge.

I understand there are always going to be odd builds but there is a basic rule for selling an instrument that is traditional in its wood use.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 25 2016 11:04:14
 
Stephen Eden

 

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: What are your thougts of a sycam... (in reply to Earloflondon) 
What is vernica blanca it doesn't show up on a google search and I have never heard of it before.

Tom over here it is hard to sell flamenco guitars. Perhaps down to the popularity of it here, or just that we are so close to Spain you can get a 'real' flamenco guitar just as easily. So no matter what wood combo you go for it will be difficult to sell unless you already have a buyer!

I have had a lot of success building Cedar Rosewood negra's over the years so I don't why this would be any less successful. They can be just as growly and earthy. Just not as dry as a cypress blanca.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 26 2016 8:26:45
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: What are your thougts of a sycam... (in reply to Earloflondon) 
Jose tanaka has two rosewood/cedars and they're pretty dang flamenco sounding.

quote:

I can't afford to use other woods than the recommended cypress or rosewood since my guitars require it due to the prices I charge.

I don't quite understand what this means.....is it, because you charge a lot you can't use untraditional woods?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 26 2016 13:32:38
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: What are your thougts of a sycam... (in reply to Leñador) 
quote:


I don't quite understand what this means.....is it, because you charge a lot you can't use untraditional woods?


I think you were addressing this to me so right now I'm building a rosewood cedar top Reyes style guitar. The market does not bear real well to off type woods when you get into non-traditional builds. Most of the market trends are about 85% traditional.

And this sells better for me, so I won't go into the why's and wherefores but to say I works for me.

BTW my prices are about $12,000 to $15,000 US on the average now, and this is quite a bit lower than some of the top builders.

And I understand that this forum is mostly lower end price lines but it's still a fun place to be, when talking guitars.

Note: lower prices does not necessarily mean lower quality.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 26 2016 13:52:34
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: What are your thougts of a sycam... (in reply to Stephen Eden) 
quote:

I have had a lot of success building Cedar Rosewood negra's over the years so I don't why this would be any less successful. They can be just as growly and earthy. Just not as dry as a cypress blanca.


I agree, your approach to that should sell guitars for you. I'm applying that to my current build to see how it works.

But building three guitars at a time....well.......the more power to you.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 26 2016 21:19:30
 
tri7/5

 

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012
 

RE: What are your thougts of a sycam... (in reply to Tom Blackshear) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

BTW my prices are about $12,000 to $15,000 US on the average now, and this is quite a bit lower than some of the top builders.



Lower than whom? Greg Smallman, Hauser, Romanillos? I'd hardly consider them a baseline to go on as that's just the crazy classical realm to be honest. As many guys as I consider top builders it's hard for me to come up with many at your price point.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 26 2016 22:24:41
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: What are your thougts of a sycam... (in reply to tri7/5) 
quote:

Lower than whom? Greg Smallman, Hauser, Romanillos? I'd hardly consider them a baseline to go on as that's just the crazy classical realm to be honest. As many guys as I consider top builders it's hard for me to come up with many at your price point.


Well, I was asked about my prices so I gave it. Most people who appreciate fine guitars don't mind me earning the prices with over 55 years of work; Longer then Greg or Jose, and possibly Hauser 111.

The hope this doesn't offend you that I try and apply what the market bears. And the last time I looked, it seemed that I was lower than a significant number of builders, wondering why I could never catch up

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 27 2016 7:21:12
 
SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014
 

RE: What are your thougts of a sycam... (in reply to Tom Blackshear) 
quote:

Most people who appreciate fine guitars don't mind me earning the prices with over 55 years of work;


Plus one on that.

There are a lot of products in this world I would love to own, but can't. Ferraris, Yachts, super models, etc. Reality is they will always be out of reach for me. But...I do enjoy them from a far and glad there is a market for those whom can afford them.

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Rick
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 27 2016 14:23:02
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: What are your thougts of a sycam... (in reply to SephardRick) 
quote:

What are your thoughts of a sycamore and cedar combo


Thanks for the support, Rick.

Getting back to the thread title, I think that sycamore is fine for a guitar, especially any master named instrument that used it but for the sake of us who would come after them, I recommend traditional woods like cypress and rosewood.

However, there are many acoustically good woods, if you can get past the different looks.

Who knows, some builder might reinvent a balsa laminate to the market that will be so light in weight that it would fly off the sales shelves.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 27 2016 17:00:54
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What are your thougts of a sycam... (in reply to Stephen Eden) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

What is vernica blanca it doesn't show up on a google search and I have never heard of it before.



http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Vernice_bianca

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 27 2016 17:46:03
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: What are your thougts of a sycam... (in reply to Ricardo) 
This is primarily for the violin family but not necessarily for guitars that should breath and sing through their wood cells vibrating in their pores that will soften and release pectin as they age.

I experimented with this back in the 80's, although not this particular technique of wood coating, which if used, might cover the screechy sounds of a new violin. But with a guitar, it might enhance more dimensional tonal quality to leave the virgin wood untouched; just to cover the wood with thin coats of shellac.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 27 2016 20:09:14
 
Earloflondon

 

Posts: 21
Joined: Jul. 6 2016
 

RE: What are your thougts of a sycam... (in reply to Earloflondon) 
Kevin, thank you for such a detailed explanation. I really appreciate it. My thinking of guitar making for the time being is a rather more experimental experience than a money making one. As you put, it why bother trying to overengineer while there is a longer than a century old construction experience which became tradition with all the dimensions, patterns, processes and procedures that have proven themselves as norm for flamenco guitar making. A traditional path in most hand made flamenco guitars would prove fine and more so in luthier made ones, I am sure.
I strongly agree with your comment on the vernica bianca's suspected impact on the sound. Still, given the guitar was a classical one in the beginning with a lot of sustain, the application of both vernica bianca and a thick layer of medium hard violin varnish on top of a really thinned sound board just made me to suspect from the suppression of the sound. I don't know whether it will have the same dampening effect on the new project. We will see...

Tom, thank you for the reply. The bracing pattern I am planning to use is Randy Reynolds' Santos pattern as shown on his website. I've not heard the sound of his Santos flamenco. We will see... I am not planning to sell this and the 1909 Ramirez flamenco. They are for me to play :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 29 2016 3:05:22
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