3 finger picado

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3 finger picado

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Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

3 finger picado

So I think I've come to terms that I don't have the fast twitch muscles or discipline to do a lightning picado. But I would like to be able to throw in a little run here and there where fitting. I'm thinking to start working on a 3 finger picado technique. Cheating you say?? I kinda don't care lol. Theres a big chunk of falsetas that I could play that I don't because my picado can't keep up.
What's your guys thoughts on this besides "it's cheating" and does anyone have some experience with it or know of any good videos?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2016 21:31:26

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Leñador)

My dear departed friend Manuel Lopez-Ramos was a big advocate of three finger picado. As much as I respected and admired him I always thought the three finger technique sounded kind of mushy. Serranito (Victor Monge) is one of the major users of three finger picado in flamenco and I have the same opinion of his sound as that of Maestro Ramos. I like a crisp picado so my judgement may be biased.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2016 23:24:54

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

So I think I've come to terms that I don't have the fast twitch muscles or discipline to do a lightning picado. But I would like to be able to throw in a little run here and there where fitting. I'm thinking to start working on a 3 finger picado technique. Cheating you say?? I kinda don't care lol. Theres a big chunk of falsetas that I could play that I don't because my picado can't keep up.
What's your guys thoughts on this besides "it's cheating" and does anyone have some experience with it or know of any good videos?

It's only "cheating" because you get more for less. BUT, it's extremely difficult to coordinate. You will probably spend equal time to master either. I use it very sparingly for this reason, and also the sound is not as good finally.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2016 23:26:05

jg7238

Posts: 2869
Joined: May 11 2009

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Leñador)

Quite frankly I don't think it's cheating. It does take less effort to execute but the coordination part of it is tricky. I was practicing 3 finger picado using "La Plazuela". It's still hard to get the same sound as the old 2 finger picado though....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2016 1:11:48

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Leñador)

Ah, so I'm up against hard to coordinate and bad tone......I've noticed the difficult to coordinate part in the little I've tried but I figured it'd sort it's self out like weird arpeggio patterns. Maybe as an alternative for specific little passages that I wouldn't be able to play at tempo otherwise. So I wont be "versed" in 3 finger I just have a few little runs memorized with an ergonomic pattern of some sort.....
If i can get it anywhere near yours JG I'd be a happy camper.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2016 2:06:21

jg7238

Posts: 2869
Joined: May 11 2009

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Leñador)

@Lenador: You can definitely get a 3 finger picado going if you practice scales using different patterns(especially the triplets)... AMI, AIM, IMA, IAM, MIA, MAI, etc... No question about it. Attack and tone are far more important than speed.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2016 3:43:16

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

I don't have the [...] discipline to do a lightning picado.

What makes you think you'll have the discipline to master a harder technique?

Sounds like you're looking for a magic bullet.

Just keep practicing regular picado. There's a reason (I can think of many) it's the standard.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2016 4:41:39

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

What makes you think you'll have the discipline to master a harder technique

As seen in my second post I was unaware that it was a harder technique.

Thanks JG imma take a wack at it for a few weeks and see how it goes.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2016 14:43:18

Filip

Posts: 403
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Leñador)

In my case, I can use the A finger for playing only if I don't rest it one the upper string (tremolo, arpegio). I don't know if it is me (shape of my nails or whatever), but I find it a bit uncomfortable to play A finger and then rest it on the string as I or M. But maybe I just need to practice.
Also the sound I get is quite different.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2016 19:51:24

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Leñador)

It's definitely not cheating, and I think the "hard to coordinate" part is probably just because you didn't start that way in the beginning. Typically you're playing 3 notes on a string more often than 2 so it actually makes more sense in a way.
I guess the problem is just getting the A finger strong enough to match the other two in tone.
I've been experimenting with AI picado because I decided my M finger is just too long to cooperate.
The AI can play great picado but it doesn't have much aire.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2016 0:08:10

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Culpepper

It's definitely not cheating, and I think the "hard to coordinate" part is probably just because you didn't start that way in the beginning. Typically you're playing 3 notes on a string more often than 2 so it actually makes more sense in a way.
I guess the problem is just getting the A finger strong enough to match the other two in tone.
I've been experimenting with AI picado because I decided my M finger is just too long to cooperate.
The AI can play great picado but it doesn't have much aire.

Look, I hear different opinions about what is or is not cheating or difficult to coordinate, but it's pretty much black and white. I have students that I allow to "scratch the dog" type strum to produce a specific rhythm. That would be medium fast up and down controlled strumming with the entire hand or index finger, to produce a rhythm that I am trying to get them to do with amii, or whatever. The reason is because it is simply easier to do up down up down with the hand or a single finger, than to coordinate the same exact rhythm with a complex 3 or more finger pattern. Once the sound is heard and internalized, then getting the fingers to reproduce the same rhythm is a little easier to understand for some students. The sound in the end becomes what it's about, which is why it's not a substitute for making a certain rhythm. We don't let a student bypass doing rasgueados because they are "hard to coordinate", when down up strum is making the same rhythms.

On the flip side, there is a time and place for a very strong, loud and fast up and down entire hand strum that most of us confront speed limitation on. Needing THAT sound and energy and substituting it with fingers or abanico (p a I , or other) say, because we just can't make it happen at tempo, is no good. It's kind of weak or at least not the right energy or sound needed, though the speed is no problem. It would be "cheating" on the true intention. We confront the exact same issues here dealing with two or three finger alternation (picados). Similar things arrive dealing with when "to ligado or not to ligado".

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2016 2:42:14

jg7238

Posts: 2869
Joined: May 11 2009

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Leñador)

Ok, I was just having fun practicing 3 finger picado with a sponge... I can definitely see the potential in 3 finger picado... I'll stick to two though...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 16 2016 3:36:33

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Leñador)

Daaaaaamn! Warp speed captain!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 16 2016 17:49:36

jsndlng

Posts: 20
Joined: Dec. 29 2014

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Look, I hear different opinions about what is or is not cheating or difficult to coordinate, but it's pretty much black and white ...... Similar things arrive dealing with when "to ligado or not to ligado".

I'd certainly consider using ligado because you can't get it done picado fast enough to be cheating - ditto for a speedy up and down stroke in place of a proper Ras (I would have thought a straight up and down was a no go period?) but most of the people here can't even hear and agree whether it is three or 2 finger in the original video so I doubt anyone could listen to a variety of 3 and 2 finger picados within a piece/context blind folded and say which was which. In that case it is not cheating any more than holding the guitar the way most folks do nowadays is cheating. Though there were bound to be many who thought the cross legged position was cheating early on. if I close my eyes and can't tell the difference how they are sitting or what technique is being played it ain't cheating. Personally I never hold the guitar cross legged. I never analyse the music I love if it sounds magnificent either. If it sounds brilliant, as someone said above, it ain't cheating :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 16 2016 19:53:54

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to jsndlng)

Nobody said that "cheating" on technique is not an acceptable way to make music. What it comes down to is being able to admit that one technique is being substituted for another because the person is confronted with his or her own lack of ability. I cheat all the time as a player, but I can admit it. It doesn't matter if people think it is musical and pretty, or fools other players ears... cheating is cheating.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 16 2016 20:24:52

jsndlng

Posts: 20
Joined: Dec. 29 2014

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Ricardo)

I can't argue with that :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 16 2016 20:40:43

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Leñador)

I use 3 finger picado more and more. It is only cheating if you consider it to be traditional picado. 3 finger picado is its own technique. If you can pull it off then its not cheating. That to me is like saying rasgueos are cheating to get strumming fast.
You cannot get the same sound from the guitar using this technique but you can get a fairly impressive velocity and it is a useful tool for short bursts of speed. Long picado runs will not sound as convincing (unless you are Gerardo Nuñez)
The other thing (from my experience) is that it is possible for any player with decent arpeggio and tremelo technique to get a good level of 3 finger picado that they would never achieve with 2 finger picado.

Here is a good starter exercise. Think in triplets and keep repeating. Always start with (a) finger.

a..m..i..a..m..i.. a..m..i.. etc.

------------0--1--3---1--0-------0------------------------0--1--3---1--0-------0-------------
-0--1--3----------------------3------3--1-----0--1--3-----------------------3-------3--1------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2016 11:28:19

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Pimientito)

You can extend this into a triplet scale. This one fits bulerias in E.
This one is many times harder to pull off

-------------0--1--3--1--0------0------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--0--1--3--------------------3------3--1--0--1--3--1--0-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------2--0--2--4--2--0------0------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------3------3--2---0--2--3--2--0------0--------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------3------3--2--0--2--3--2--0-----0------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------3------4--1--0--

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2016 11:37:30

Leñador

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Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Leñador)

Sweet, thanks Pim! I've been playing with what kind of "pattern" to use so I'll sick with this one. I'm only wanting to use it for short bursts like you say,

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2016 14:45:04

Piwin

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RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Pimientito)

Thanks! I'm gonna give this a go.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2016 14:54:10

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Piwin)

Here's an exercise I've been playing around with to get more comfortable with this whole three-finger picado thing. Starting with a, ami all the way, 16th-notes. If you loop it (the last lower E becomes the first E in the exercise), the first time around you start with a, the second with m, the third with i so you cover all three possibilities.

------------------------------------------------0--1--3--5--3--1--0--3--1--0------1--0---------0--------------------------
--------------------------------------0--1--3------------------------------------3---------3--1------3--1--0--3--1--0------
-------------------------------0--2----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------2--
---------------------0--2--3--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------0--2--3------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-0--1--3----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-1--0---------0-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------2--0-----2--0------2--0------ --0----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------3---------3--2------3--2--0--3--2--0------2--0---------0----------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------3---------3--2------3--2--0--3--2--0------2--0---------0----------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------3---------3--1------3--1--0

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 3 2016 21:04:58

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Piwin)

Hi Piwin

I personally found it a bit weird to be accenting it that way. Also starting the run again with m and then i is going against the logic of the technique to a degree.
Its not wrong exactly..... but try it this way...this is Gerardos approach. You will find the fingering more logical. (16th notes) Start a,m,i....

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------0----------0--1---------0--1--3--0--1--3--5--3--1--0--3--1--0------1--0---------
-----------------------------------------------------------------1--------0--1--3--0--1--3------1--3----------3-----------------------------------------------------3----------3--1--
---------------------------------0--2----- 0--2--4--0--2--4-------2--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------0--2--3---------3---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------0--2--3-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-0--1--3-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

etc. to end of scale
Now your last note of the scale is (a) finger which brings the whole thing back to the beginning again

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 4 2016 12:15:42

Piwin

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RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Pimientito)

Thanks Pimientito!
I'll give this a go!

Edit: I gave your run a try but if I start with a I end with a (so start the next one with m). Is there a variation at the end that I'm missing or do you follow that four-note descending pattern all the way to the end? Or, probably the most likely, am I just not coordinating my fingers right

?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 4 2016 13:58:28

Leñador

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Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Leñador)

These are great thanks! I've been researching and building a lil fish pond for myself, just finished, back to guitar!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 4 2016 16:18:00

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Piwin)

quote:

I gave your run a try but if I start with a I end with a (so start the next one with m).

No...you start with (a) and end with (a). So far so good!!!
The final note is the open bass string (E). That is last note of the scale but its also the first note as well so you just repeat it. Think of the last note as the beginning and the end. The next note will be 2cd fret played with (m).

The pattern should repeat without changing the finger combination. You always start the run with (a). Most of the 3 finger patterns you will see have been worked out to always be repeatable in the fingering. As a rule you should always start with (a) finger for any 3 finger picado pattern and ideally end on (i) or (a) again to repeat the pattern. Im working today but Ill post a couple more examples tomorrow.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 5 2016 9:17:38

tri7/5

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RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Leñador)

I think you just have to go with what works for you. When I first got into classical and even flamenco years ago before I knew what I was doing I naturally went with a three finger picado as it just felt right. It took a lot of practice for me to move to a two finger as it felt unnatural at first but it needed to happen. There was immediate noticeable improvement in the overall sound and ability to flow through passages. Based on this thread I tried some random three finger just to see if I could do it again and man it was rough. I think I'll stick to my two.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 5 2016 12:44:46

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Pimientito)

Ok. Here is an exercise I use to warm up. I have tabbed it on the Amin 4th position but you can play it anywhere on the guitar neck.

a,m,i,a,m,i etc

--------------------------------------------------------------------5---------5--7-----5--7--8--5--7-----5---------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------5----------5--6----- 5--6--8--5--6--8-----6--8---------8--------------------8-----6--8--5--6------5-----------------------------------------
--4--5--7--4--5--7------5--7-----------7-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------7------5--7--4--5------4--------4--5------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------7-----6--7---------7--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It starts with (a) finger and finishes with on (i) which allows you to start the whole cycle again.
Start very slowly and just keep repeating it. The left hand fingering is a bit trickey on the change from 3rd to second string.
When you play the 5th fret, 2cd string with you first finger, hold that finger in place until you need it for the first string. The same again for the descending scale. Hold the first finger on that 5th fret and use the second and forth fingers on the 3rd string.
Edventually your right hand will do the 3 finger pattern without thinking about it and this should sound almost Malmsteen fast.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2016 9:11:17

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Pimientito)

So how can we use this technique in a practical context? Here is a short falseta I wrote por Bulerias using 3 finger picado.
Its two compas long, Bulerias in A (medio). First half compas Dmin, Second half compas C, Third half compas Bb, Final half compas A
Play Dm on beat 12 and triplets for 1,2,3,4,5. Use 3 finger picado starting on (a) Next C major on beat 6 and triplets for 7,8,9,10,11 again starting a,m,i.
Same for next compas. Play Bb followed by 5 triplet groups. The last note is the A which falls on beat 6. From there just do normal compas
on A. Play the pattern twice. Its a very effective virtuoso variation.

--1---------0--1---3--5--3--1--0-------0------------------------0------------0--1--3--1--0-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--3-----3-----------------------------3-------3--1--0--1--3------1----1--3--------------------3--1------------------------------------------------------------------
--2------------------------------------------------------------------0--------------------------------------3--2--0------------------------------------------------------
--0------------------------------------------------------------------2---------------------------------------------------3--2--0-----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------3-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------0--0--0----------------------------------------------------------------
----3------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------2--2--2----------------------------------------------------------------
----0-----------------0--2--3--5--3--2--0--------------------------------------------------3--3--3----------------------------------------------------------------
----3-----0--2--3-----------------------------3--2--0--3--2--0----------------------------2--2--2-----------------------------------------------------------------
----1-----------------------------------------------------------------4--1---0----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------COMPAS---------------------------------------------------------------

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2016 10:17:07

Pimientito

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Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Pimientito)

A simpler version based on the same idea can be played bulerias in E (bajo)
Its 2 compas starting Amin, G, F and E. The picado run is always the same. Always start a,m,i
Its actually easier to start with this one and get it up to speed. Then do the Medio falseta.

--0----------------0--1--3--1--0---------------------------------------------------0--1--3--1--0----------------------------------------------------
--1----0--1--3----------------------3--1--0-----------------------0----0--1--3--------------------3--1--0-----------------------------------------
--2----------------------------------------------2--0---------------0----------------------------------------------2--0--------------------------------
--2-----------------------------------------------------3--2--------3------------------------------------------------------3--2------------------------
--0------------------------------------------------------------------2-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------3------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------0--1--3--1--0--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------0--1--3---------------------3--1--0-----------------------0----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---2-------------------------------------------------2--0--------------1----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---3---------------------------------------------------------3--2------2-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---3--------------------------------------------------------------------2------------COMPAS----------------------------------------------------------------
---1--------------------------------------------------------------------0-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2016 10:41:02

Piwin

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Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: 3 finger picado (in reply to Pimientito)

Thanks Pimientito!!
That'll keep me busy for a long while... though at this point I still haven't figured out that first exercise. Kind of caught up at work. I look forward to giving this a go.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2016 20:36:27