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RE: UK votes out of the EU
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: UK votes out of the EU (in reply to BarkellWH)
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For those Foro members who are old enough to remember Charles de Gaulle's vehement opposition to Britain joining the original six members of the European Economic Community, I quote the following BBC news item of 27 November 1967.
"The French President, Charles de Gaulle, has for a second time said he will veto Britain's application to join the Common Market. He warned France's five partners in the European Economic Community (EEC) that if they tried to impose British membership on France it would result in the break-up of the community. All five - Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Italy and Germany - have said they would support negotiations towards British membership. Only France remains opposed."
There is a certain irony in Britain's exit from the EU, given France's (under de Gaulle) early opposition to Britain's entry.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 25 2016 15:27:41
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: UK votes out of the EU (in reply to Morante)
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Wowo ....i mean woow ....
wow....
wrong on so many levels ...
The rich have spoken against other rich ......
they wont suffer at all ,,but the working man will , jobs,, prices, services , ,travel, , family ..
Things will be taken away from a lot of people that have very little or nothing ...
Its not possible that things can return to normal ,, there are going to be some really big changes and the consequences are as yet difficult to calculate ..
This is a wake up call to not be governed by a bunch of short sighted morons that look after themselves in the guise of ..'the greater good ///
YOu really do need someone , with power , to sort this out , as it is border changing stuff ..
no creo que esto es bueno............
_____________________________
Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Jun. 26 2016 0:43:31
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Escribano
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
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RE: UK votes out of the EU (in reply to Morante)
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It is a vote from the incredibly thick and openly racist bigots. They have destroyed the hopes and dreams of the educated youth, the wealth generators, doctors, engineers and scientists of England.
I am 60 this year and I voted Remain. I had dreams for my retirement that I will have to work around somehow. My friends from Apple, Google, IBM, Microsoft et al. are already working on emigration plans that will leave England smaller, poorer and much less significant. Ireland could do rather well from that, assuming it doesn't implode in sectarian border disputes.
It will take a generation to unravel the EU rights embedded in our laws, the UK will break apart and the rich can afford to live wherever they like. It is more a strike against the middle-classes whom the poor also hate - nothing new in that.
The EU grants and subsidies they have been receiving are gone, mighty employers like Nissan in Sunderland and Mini in Swindon will relocate.
All large capital investment projects will be on hold for years.
London will lose much of its financial status.
Our tax revenues will fall dramatically.
quote:
you can not take anything away from those who have nothing
Oh, I don't know. How about the council house, benefits, jobs, pensions, affordable food, fuel, cheap flights and holidays, 28 days leave per year, low interest rates, carers, nurses, doctors, employment rights, maternity pay, vocational training, further education?
That took just 5 minutes to list and I cannot think of a single argument that says staying in the EU would have been even worse.
In short, we gave a child a loaded gun and said "go on then, shoot. Someone else will clean up the mess."
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Date Jun. 26 2016 9:35:33
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: UK votes out of the EU (in reply to Morante)
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I see very little to no connection at all between the EU and class warfare. If the intent was to strike down the rich, the closest we've got with this is striking down our political representatives, that many perceive as being part of the rich. However, where the actual money lies is not in politics, not by a long shot. There are systemic issues to be addressed, and plotting the poor against the rich "bastards" does nothing to solve these. There have been a few interesting studies that suggest a correlation between increased wealth and lower empathy and an increased sense of entitlement (i.e., the richer you are, the more you feel that you "deserve" what you earned). These results would have to be reproduced to have any validity but they do suggest an interesting side effect of wealth on the human psyche. In the ten years I spent as a conference interpreter, I've sat in on countless meetings with the top brass from both the political world and the corporate world, from shareholder's meetings to G8 meetings, etc. etc. The image that some have of the rich and powerful secretly plotting against the world in a dark room is simply wrong. These people are after all human beings, and have that little voice in their heads like the rest of us. What you do see is the same flaws that afflict the rest of humanity, from self-interest to greed, etc. etc. But you also see the same qualities that the rest of humanity can display, generosity, selflessness, etc. etc. The solution to all of this is not to replace one set of individuals by another. To do so would simply be uninformed.
I have quite a few complaints against the French government, and against Brussels for that matter. A lot of it has to do with how wasteful they can be, and this is a problem that is recurrent in the public sector. However, I needn't remind you that even just 25 years ago, 75% of the entire budget of the EU was allocated to the CAP, i.e. subsidies to help EU farmers survive in a globalized economy. There are reasons to criticize this, but EU farmers are hardly rich fat cats...
Finally, I'll just add this. Over the years, as a freelancer in France, I've lost on average from a few hundred to, in the worst cases, a few thousand euros a year because of union strikes. I should add that I'm very much part of the middle to lower-middle class. Each time the SNCF (train service) went on strike, I'd have to book a hotel, in some cases take a cab over long distances, just to get to work. In those cases, I was often working at a loss. I'm all for the right to go on strike. What gets to me is that every single time the union reps say that they are doing this for everyone, to defend the rights of all the French people, etc. etc. I would just like them to admit that they are defending their own rights, their own little group, in the exact same way as some wealthy corporate groups do. They couldn't care less about the rest of us. The truth of it is, there are no more bastards among the rich than there are among the poor. And no more good people among the rich than among the poor. What any of this has to do with the EU vote, I honestly have no idea.
So goes it...
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Jun. 26 2016 10:22:20
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: UK votes out of the EU (in reply to Escribano)
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in a way it doesnt matter as the referendum isnt deemed to be legally binding anyway and the government are in no way forced to go by it , it could go back to the parliament and be overruled to stay in ,
This is all to do with this very vague article 50..and also why Cameron said it wont be for him to trigger this article 50 that starts the leaving process but he would leave it for his successor , and apparently there is no specified time limit for this to happen , and lots of other things about A50 are very, very vague as nobody thought it would ever be used,, so he still has many options open to him , as many as he needs ... I think ...
Actually , Escribano , having thought about it , I dont think you should leave and become Irish, as if everyone did that , then Great Britain would be cleared of all the reasonable folk and left to just the NF and complete idiots that have no political foresight whatsoever , its kinda now that reasonable people , that can work things out , are actually needed in England ..
Escribano for prime minister....shouts El Kiko !!!
ever thought of a life in politics ?
_____________________________
Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Jun. 26 2016 20:27:53
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Escribano
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
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RE: UK votes out of the EU (in reply to El Kiko)
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quote:
in a way it doesnt matter as the referendum isnt deemed to be legally binding anyway and the government are in no way forced to go by it , it could go back to the parliament and be overruled to stay in
You are on the right track, keep thinking.
quote:
ever thought of a life in politics ?
Funnily enough I am considering it. I won't lie down over this travesty of populist chest thumping.
Here's my most recent analysis of the invocation of Article 50 question:
Article 50 - To Invoke or Not to Invoke
Political suicide either way, but what would really be best for the country and which suicide is worse? An even bigger gamble than the one Cameron took.
Remain represents our aspirational youth, well-educated professionals* and most off our major employers, whilst Leave does not.*
*exceptions should statistically cancel each other out.
I propose a strategy. Take Nicola Sturgeon of the SNP out for a posh meal on the Royal Mile and make a simple deal - no UK Government permission under a Section 30 Order for another Scottish Independence Referendum, in exchange for the blocking of Article 50 in the Scottish parliament.
An implementation of a UK withdrawal agreement from the EU:
quote:
would entail amendment of section 29 of the Scotland Act 1998, which binds the Scottish Parliament to act in a manner compatible with EU law, and he therefore believed that the Scottish Parliament’s consent would be required
There are some very clever lawyers in Edinburgh. Today, she already threatened to do so to buy some time to talk with Brussels about EU membership for an independent Scotland but:
quote:
Scotland now has a deficit three times higher than EU membership application allows. Another mandate of application is that there must be a commitment to the euro (and Schengen) and that the applicant must have a central bank with three years’ business under it’s belt, to prove its solvency. Scotland doesn’t currently pass any of these rudimentary criteria.
If the UK stays in the EU through this contrived impasse, so does Scotland without doing anything else. Simple constitutional solution and each can blame the other, with a wry shrug.
It would be tied up in the courts for many, many years and Brexiteers just don't have the funds to maintain such a challenge.
Importantly, this should satisfy both a Leave or a Remain PM. No-one falls on their sword. They are merely demonstrating our sovereignty - the one Brexiteers want to take back.
Interesting times.
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Date Jun. 26 2016 21:27:52
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: UK votes out of the EU (in reply to Escribano)
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i suppose you first have to work out ..will Article 50 ever be put into motion..?..really ?
or is Cameron playing game of ... I did my bit , now i'm going..... leaving behind something for my successor that cannot be used,,, as it will mean years of stock market failures due to non support , tax problems , pay problems , imigration problems .. you name it , the person who starts it off will not be viewed well in the history books ...the sheer enormity of the problem means ....
.
Whos gonna do that and come out smelling of roses...?
Even Boris and his mates said they are in NO HURRY to go there ...meaning it will take a lot of thinking about ....
Remember once you say GO ..its pre written into the article ,,,you have 2 years to conclude it or you get kicked out anyway with nothing negotiated ,,and your on your own ...
However the rest of Europe dont want to be in a ..will they ? or wont they ?..limbo ....of is it gonna hit the fan this week ?
Because it will, of course, affect them all ...
It's all a bit catch22 ish , you now have a threat you cant use , which is no threat at all , but you still have it ...
.so they could force a move ...or threaten suspension using Atricle 7, claiming a serious breech of Article 2 .....( yes i read them all ....and then theres the Sanity Claus ....as groucho marx said )
so Europe could force a move , threaten suspension ... but it probably wouldnt be in their own interest ...
I think its best to let things just freewheel for as long as possible ...and with each passing week and EU conference the notion of actually starting the process will diminish ... renegotiation may be the way out of a room that seems to have to visible door ....
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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Jun. 26 2016 23:14:59
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: UK votes out of the EU (in reply to hamia)
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quote:
despite your rather silly insinuations
I feel like I've been saying this a lot these days but please, please!, don't read more into it than there was. I insinuated absolutely nothing. I know nothing about you but rest assured if I wanted to call anyone a racist, I wouldn't beat around the bush and use insinuations... I do however stand by my position that that structure of argumentation is not in vogue these days and is probably more detrimental to the argument you're trying to put out there than anything else. Take it or leave it.
As for the issue of immigration, I very well understand your point. These are difficult issues and there is no easy solution. If we take the two extreme cases, we're basically choosing between a change in culture or a senescent population. Neither of them seem desirable and fortunately reality lies in none of these extremes, rather somewhere in between. In the meantime, I fail to see how what you said in your previous post answered my question about what the EU really has to do with immigration. I'll assume it has to do with the fundamental principle of free movement within the EU and the idea is that by leaving the EU, you'll have less polish plumbers to put it simply. We can skim over the fact that the UK is not part of the Schengen Area (there are enough migrants piled up in the Calais Jungle to remind us of that) and therefore has as much control over illegal immigration than it will ever have. It also has full control of immigration from non-EU states. Immigration to the UK from non-EU states went up rather drastically during the 90s and has plateaued since then. This was the result of national policy and in no way informed by EU policy.
That narrows it down quite a bit already, and in terms of actual immigrants to the UK, we're left with less than half of all immigrants (obviously an estimate since illegal immigrants don't tend to register...), i.e. those that come from EU member states. In other words, if the issue is demographics, then you'd have better results by having a more stringent control on non-EU immigration than by leaving the EU. Looking at immigration from the EU, there was a sharp increase in 2004, with the accession of the Eastern and Central European States. Immigration from these countries increased from 2004 to 2006 then begun declining rather drastically. It started up again in 2010-2011 as the economic crisis didn't resolve. And that is the crux of it. Assuming these immigrations will continue over decades is to assume that the economic crisis of 2007 won't resolve by then. This is a possibility but an incredibly bleak and pessimistic one that has little factual support. By leaving the EU, the UK could possibly cut down its immigration rates by somewhere between 40 to 45%, something it could have done by better controlling immigration from non-EU states. Finding that the immigration rates they have then are far too low to guarantee that the entire system works (population decline is not an option in a system where the young pay for the old, and won't be at least until we get over the baby boom hump), they will have to strike immigration agreements with the EU to let more people in... Basically put, by leaving the EU, the UK will most likely lose many high-end financial and manufacturing jobs, end up with an overqualified workforce that will either be discontent for having to work on underqualified and underpaid subsistence jobs or will simply emigrate, its farming sector will be on life support as the EU subsidies is pretty much the only reason it is still alive, and all of this to "solve" a short-term immigration issue that will most likely resolve on its own with an uptake in the world economy. Basically put, instead of finding better ways to ensure assimilation, the UK is shooting itself in the foot to feel that pain in its arm a bit less...
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Jun. 29 2016 12:33:29
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