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RIP Jo Cox
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: RIP Jo Cox (in reply to Dudnote)
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Yes, RIP Jo Cox. So much of our politics and "Culture Wars" have become course and toxic on both sides of hot-button issues in the United Kingdom and the United States, as well as in other countries. And that creates an atmosphere conducive to violence and, as we have seen, even murder.
Nevertheless, it would be a mistake to label all those with whom one disagrees as "fascists" or "xenophobes." Thursday and Friday evening the PBS News Hour had segments in which the Oxford Union hosted a debate on "leave" or "remain" on the issue of "Brexit." The side advocating "Remain" won the debate, but the opposing side had some very rational reasons for advocating "Leave," including the immigration issue.
Britain has problems with unassimilated Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, and others who have lived there for decades. Much of the lack of integration is due to self-segregation. There is an argument to be made that more integration and assimilation should be the norm before accepting many thousands more immigrants who come from completely alien cultures. People who make that argument are by no means all ignorant xenophobes.
But that is a debate for another time. We mourn the killing of Jo Cox, a bright, intelligent star in Britain's political firmament.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 18 2016 13:01:33
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Dudnote
Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
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RE: RIP Jo Cox (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
Yes, RIP Jo Cox. So much of our politics and "Culture Wars" have become course and toxic on both sides of hot-button issues in the United Kingdom and the United States, as well as in other countries. And that creates an atmosphere conducive to violence and, as we have seen, even murder.
Nevertheless, it would be a mistake to label all those with whom one disagrees as "fascists" or "xenophobes." Thursday and Friday evening the PBS News Hour had segments in which the Oxford Union hosted a debate on "leave" or "remain" on the issue of "Brexit." The side advocating "Remain" won the debate, but the opposing side had some very rational reasons for advocating "Leave," including the immigration issue.
Britain has problems with unassimilated Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, and others who have lived there for decades. Much of the lack of integration is due to self-segregation. There is an argument to be made that more integration and assimilation should be the norm before accepting many thousands more immigrants who come from completely alien cultures. People who make that argument are by no means all ignorant xenophobes.
But that is a debate for another time. We mourn the killing of Jo Cox, a bright, intelligent star in Britain's political firmament.
Thanks for your thoughts guys.
In the case of this murder there can be no doubt that xenophobia and fascism were a major contributing factor. A good deal of extreme-right literature was found at the murder's house, so dismissing the murder as the result of mental illness is really just an effort to disconnected the actions of one man from the political discourse and institutions of the day. It is paramount to claiming that the life work of Mahatma Gandhi was inconsequential to the life and actions of Martin Luther King. That argument is undoubtedly a smoke screen to put a distance between those who spread xenophobic ideas (including much of the tabloid press) and the final dire consequences of fanning the flames of hate. There is a clear case of double standards here because had the murderer been Muslim the word "terrorist" would be all over the headlines. But he was a white guy so the media afford him the nudge of sympathy that the term "mental illness" provides as if to say he was a one off crack pot with no links to the outside world. Of course he had links in the outside world - he used to order publications from pro-apartheid groups in South Africa. Whether the mechanisms by which others influenced his decision to kill we direct or indirect is almost irrelevant (apart from their legal connotations). And since when was outright fascism and hate fulled murder not a mental illness? And since when were mentally unstable or week men and women not prime candidates for recruitment to the extremist cause?
Perhaps there are some good arguments for the leave campaign. But it is infuriating to see how rarely those arguments come to the fore. Unfortunately those aspects of the debate are too frequently side lined by xenophobic fear mongering. Some of the propaganda being used is hauntingly reminiscent of 1930s Germany. Moreover, studies have shown that education and socio-economic class are among the most statistically important factors determining voter's choice in the upcoming referendum. You just have to look to the hooliganism on the streets and stadiums of France during the current European Cup, or go into pubs up and down the country, to realize that a rational debate is not what is going to sway a sizable chunk of the electorate. I would long for a more rational debate - but history has taught us that emotional debates in disgruntled populations can be very powerful and very dangerous too. The task of confronting those forces is momentous and the loss of Jo Cox is a severe blow.
Bill, regarding integration "problems". Not for the first time, I find you are clearly only pointing your finger to one side of a situation without considering the fuller picture. In the early 2000's I lived in Hyde, Manchester (home of England's most notorious serial killer Harold Shipman - an "educated" white man). We lived exactly on the dividing line between a principally white area and a principally Bangladeshi area. We had many friends from the Bangladeshi community, as well as a small number of rather unpleasant neighbors in the white community too. White kids would hang out in the alley behind our house to burn bins and exchange racist jokes. At that time there was, as there still is, fear of a rise of fascism in the country. There were several clashes between whites and Asians on the streets of several northern towns (luckily not our town). But, it transpired these clashes were being started by whites from London driving north at night just to aggravate a situation and have a fight. Just as much of the football hooliganism that is a darned embarrassment to our country is far from spontaneous - many of those fights are organised by men who enjoy to fight. If wider integration is the issue we cannot possibly move forward by singling out minority communities and pointing the blame entirely at them without looking at the mechanisms of recruitment of white extremist groups.
While my thoughts are very much with the family and friends of Jo Cox, I believe it would be a dire mistake to stand back and declare silence on the related politics, because this would be to undermine everything Jo Cox was working so energetically for. This post-murder article outlines the views of her husband Brendan Cox on just why mainstream politicians are clueless on the migration debate and why that debate is all too often dragged to the right by emotional and not rational arguments.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/17/mainstream-politicians-clueless-on-how-to-deal-with-migration-debate-says-jo-coxs-husband
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Date Jun. 18 2016 14:23:09
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Escribano
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
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RE: RIP Jo Cox (in reply to Dudnote)
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quote:
In the case of this murder there can be no doubt that xenophobia and fascism were a major contributing factor. A good deal of extreme-right literature was found at the murder's house
I don't know, until such evidence is presented in court, as is only just. i have literature and music in my house that some may find offensive, but that is my right.
quote:
While my thoughts are very much with the family and friends of Jo Cox, I believe it would be a dire mistake to stand back and declare silence on the related politics, because this would be to undermine everything Jo Cox was working so energetically for
I won't be silent, I have a vote. A large number of people (if not the majority) in the UK do not make a distinction between EU immigration (which is not the problem, as they put in more than they take out in tax, national insurance, spending etc.), and non-EU immigration. Non-EU immigration and integration has nothing to do with the EU - it is in our own power to manage that and we are failing.
What we are really missing here is the compassion and humanity of people like Jo Fox.
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Date Jun. 18 2016 14:42:12
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: RIP Jo Cox (in reply to Dudnote)
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quote:
Bill, regarding integration "problems". Not for the first time, I find you are clearly only pointing your finger to one side of a situation without considering the fuller picture. In the early 2000's I lived in Hyde, Manchester (home of England's most notorious serial killer Harold Shipman - an "educated" white man).
What the serial killer Harold Shipman has to do with this discussion is beyond me. At any rate, I suggest you re-read your screed and you will see that it contains exactly the kind of over-heated rhetoric and inability to see other points of view but your own that I mentioned has led to such a course and toxic debate over hot-button issues, including immigration.
On the issue of integration and assimilation of immigrants, the problem had existed for decades before your experience in the early 2000s. And while I deplore the actions of the whites against immigrants as much as you do, their actions do not negate my observation that the Pakistani and Bangladeshi immigrant communities had, in fact, largely self-segregated themselves and, for the most part, had not attempted to integrate and assimilate into British society. This was not due to a physical "fear factor."
All immigrants find it difficult to integrate and assimilate into a new land and society. Muslims in particular have a difficult time integrating into Western society due, in large part, to religious restrictions and their inability to separate the sacred from the secular. I have spoken to many who genuinely fear they will lose their Muslim "identity" by assimilating into Western culture. Nevertheless, I offer no apology for my position that it is up to immigrants to adapt themselves to their host country's culture and social mores. It is not up to the host country to bend its culture and social mores to accommodate those of the immigrant.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 18 2016 17:07:30
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: RIP Jo Cox (in reply to Dudnote)
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By curiosity, what do you guys on the British side make of Sadiq Khan, newly elected mayor of London?
I can't say I've followed the news much lately, I've just heard that he considers himself a moderate Muslim and as such is only the second Muslim to be mayor of a major European city (the first being Ahmed Aboutaleb, mayor of Rotterdam, who, although Muslim, made the headlines recently by telling Muslim immigrants who do not appreciate the Dutch way of life to go home and "f*** off").
Basically put, although I understand tensions are high and racism is a very real issue, but I see his election as a sign that things aren't as bad as they could be. In France we're lagging far far behind. A Muslim mayor of Paris is about as likely as a Black mayor of Paris. Not going to happen any time soon...
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Jun. 18 2016 18:01:39
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: RIP Jo Cox (in reply to Escribano)
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I understand that, Simon. The major complaint regarding free movement seems to be against recent EU members such as Poles, Rumanians, Bulgarians, etc. moving to Britain. Nevertheless, my understanding is that Britain would be obligated to accept a fair-share quota established by Brussels of Syrians, Afghans, and various African migrants washing up endlessly on Europe's shores. I think that plays into the mix as well. Thus my comments on self-segregated communities that have failed to assimilate.
Just for the record, my original statement was that it would be a mistake to think that anyone who is for "Brexit" must be a "fascist" or a "xenophobe," as was implied in the comment to which my reply was directed. I think there are people who are for the "leave" option who have well-articulated reasons, even though one might disagree with them. The Oxford Union debate was illuminating. Would that our debate on "hot-button" issues in both the UK and the US were so civilized.
Further to the record, my own position on the referendum is for Britain to "remain" in the EU. In spite of all the petty regulations emanating from Brussels, I think it is in Britain's political and economic interest to remain a part of the EU, although I think the UK definitely should continue to keep its own currency and not buy into the Euro. Were Britain to leave the EU, I think the Scots would go for independence on the next round. Moreover, from a strictly US foreign policy/national security viewpoint, it is in our interest to have our closest ally, Britain, within the EU advocating for positions on which we jointly agree rather than outside with no influence.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 18 2016 18:15:17
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Dudnote
Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
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RE: RIP Jo Cox (in reply to BarkellWH)
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Bill, please consider that you may have misinterpreted my words. The Harold Shipman thing was just a little side note that was quite irrelevant - like a flourish in a falsetta. But please read again carefully the rest of it (OK, not the mongoose stuff either). I'll admit that I wrote with anger, but, I certainly DO NOT make an automatic association between voting to leave the EU and fascism. If you thought that that is what I meant then you have certainly jumped too rapidly to a wrong conclusion. Now Bill wouldn't ever jump to a wrong conclusion would he? Read it again carefully - I DO NOT make the association that you claim I do.
That said, many people have made the claim that many of our tabloid papers are key tools in the spread of xenophobia and fear. For example, the Daily Mail was accused of antisemitism in 2013 by Jewish groups following a story designed to mar the public image of Labour leader Ed Milliband. The same paper ran a cartoon following the Paris massacre that was reported by the The New York Times to have been associated with Nazi propaganda http://www.nytimes.com/live/paris-attacks-live-updates/anger-over-daily-mail-cartoon-equating-refugees-to-rats/. Incidentally, associations with Nazi propaganda have also been made in regards to a recent campaign poster of UKIP. But let's not let the extreme-right steel the lime light here - that would be exactly not the point of talking about Jo Cox's death.
In the hours after Jo's death a fund was rased in her name to support three causes close to her heart.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/18/jo-cox-gofundme-royal-voluntary-service-hope-not-hate-white-helmets
The three charities the fund is to support are Royal Voluntary Service, Hope Not Hate and White Helmets. If you look at the web page of Hope Not Hate you will see that it "campaigns to counter racism and fascism". Brilliant!!! Now there is a crowd sourcing project I can get behind.
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/who-we-are/story-of-us/
I thought this summed up so much of what many people feel about much of the campaign to leave the EU
https://www.facebook.com/LBC/videos/10154053359791558/
@Piwin. You are not the first French person who has told me they feel Britain could be doing better with cultural integration than France. It is hard for me to comment in detail, but here are a few anecdotes. A few years ago a French lady told me that she'd been impressed in the UK to see people with dreadlocks with jobs in sectors such as banking and business - something that she felt inconceivable in France and thus she argued Britain was more tolerant on those grounds. On a different note, I am also told regularly that there is great variation within French regarding racial integration. Several people (French & Irish) have told me that racial integration on the islands of Reunion and Guadeloupe are at two entirely different stages in the process. I have no idea if an equivalent to Hope Not Hate exists in France. Do you know?
Regarding racial integration. It is clearly a slow process and one that requires patience on all sides. In Hyde we knew a young guy, born in the area to Bangladeshi parents. As first generation immigrants the parents decided they should arrange a marriage for him with a girl from Bangladesh. Actually he was free to choose the girl - he showed us the menu of facial photos and the girl he picked. Off they went to Bangladesh to meet the brides family. They stayed several weeks. There was the wedding and when he came back to the UK to arrange visas etc for his new bride he was very happy "In Bangladesh they treat me like a Prince! Not like here." Some time later he took a second trip to be back with his bride. This time things didn't go quite as well. There was a lot of pressure that he send her family money. He returned to the UK without his bride and the divorce was arranged not long afterwards.
Another anecdotal story from Hyde. Our next door neighbors were also Bangladeshi and had three children. Their oldest son was about 9 years old. For linguistic reasons he did all the family administration - making telephone calls to sort out water bills, electricity bills etc etc. He also had to "work" as translator in the conversations we had with his mum (who would spend most of her time cooking us yummy food when we were at their house). He was a great kid, very mature for his age, I expect he will be very successful in life.
Both these stories really showed the generation gap between first and second generation immigrants. There is a book on this theme called The Battle Cry of The Tiger Mother that tackles this theme from the point of view of an academic Chinese family living in the USA.
Regarding Sadiq Khan. Very shortly after the result was announced a Guadeloupean friend asked me the same question as you. I started my answer to her by recalling a statement that he would refuse to be Donald Trumps "exception" (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36256087). She promptly burnt me down. "People only ever talk about him being Muslim. Nothing about his policies and what his plans are for London!!!" She was completely right to burn me down. Why should the starting point of discussion of this man be his race? That is not the sign of a truly multi-cultural society. When I looked through his election manifesto I was overwhelmed by what a great looking candidate he was: a self-made man, human right lawyer, plenty of talk about community, public services, health, education, business and jobs. He's a man of vision, ambition and humanity and if he achieves his stated goals he will be a great mayor.
http://www.sadiq.london/my_story
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Date Jun. 19 2016 5:27:42
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: RIP Jo Cox (in reply to Dudnote)
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Got it, Dudnote. I may have over-reacted to your lengthy piece, but I am just disgusted with the level of course and toxic discourse in our political life today, both in the UK and the US, as well as other countries. The prime example in the US, of course, is Trump, with his outrageous positions and statements: banning all Muslims, a wall on the southern border to be paid for by Mexico, deporting 11 million illegals, and on and on, ad infinitum. None of these ideas are even remotely possible, yet he has a following that cheers every time he puts forth another outrageous and impossible position.
Both Trump and Bernie Sanders are ignorant and clueless troglodytes when it comes to the economy and trade. Both are against bilateral and multilateral trade agreements. Trade agreements have been shown, on balance, to be good for the economies of all concerned. The Peterson Institute of Economics and other organizations have demonstrated that the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) has been a net plus for the US and Mexico. Yes, US jobs have been lost to Mexico, but the jobs gained in the US export industry have more than compensated for those lost. Joseph Schumpeter, the Austrian-born Harvard economist coined the term "Creative Destruction" to describe how economies churn as they advance. And Trump's statement that international trade agreements have resulted in US jobs going to China is laughable. We have no trade agreement with China!
Sanders has one note, and one note only. Inequality and a stagnant middle class are all caused by Wall Street and the "One Percent." The American economy is huge with a multitude of moving parts, but Sanders' mantra resonates with those on the left: Wall Street and the "One Percent." Like Trump, Sanders' simple message is met with approval by those who want easy answers. They haven't a clue that Sanders' policies: free university, immediate doubling of the minimum wage, and various other positions would not nearly be paid for with his prescriptions.
Trump's crude and vicious statements inciting violence and his crude characterization of a Hispanic judge as a "Mexican"; and Sanders' supporters engaging in street violence at a Trump rally in Santa Monica are disgusting. I have nothing against hard-fought campaigns, but this one is simply outrageous in the level of misrepresentation and gutter language. I hate smearing someone with labels and epithets simply because one disagrees with a well-thought-out position. The trouble with Trump and Sanders is that neither has given much thought to their positions. Hillary Clinton has her faults, but she is the only adult in this campaign.
So, Dudnote, I may have been projecting my thoughts on the US presidential campaign onto your piece. Rest assured, however, that I know where you're coming from.
None of this diminishes the sadness, and yes anger, one feels over the murder of Jo Cox.
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 19 2016 11:28:05
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: RIP Jo Cox (in reply to Dudnote)
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Dudnote.
Interesting. I couldn't tell you how they compare to Hope not Hate, but the two main anti-racism NGOs in France would LICRA (technically an international league, but de facto centered on French affairs) and SOS Racism. I am not well versed in everything they do. Usually when you hear about them in the press, it is because they have sued someone for incitement to racial hatred. This makes it difficult for me to side with them, as I personally do not believe that infringement on free speech is the way to solve these problems. If you take the example of the stand-up "comic" Dieudonné, all of the court cases against him seem to have done is strengthen is core audience and give them the chance to pass off as the "victims" (muzzled by the government blablabla). I do get the intention behind the laws against incitement to racial hatred, but the side effects are pretty bad IMHO.
As for the French overseas territories, it is of course quite different in each case, quite simply because the history of those regions is very different than in mainland France. Racial integration in mainland France is also an issue of immigration, whereas this is not at all the case in the overseas territories, where the so-called "minorities" are in fact not minorities and are the native population of the area. I think of all the overseas territories, the tensions are highest in French Polynesia, or so I've been told. The way I see it, the white population in these territories was (and perhaps still is) behaving like many rich expat communities in developing countries very close to being (or actually being) gated communities in every sense of the term (there was even a study about a decade ago about the genetic impact of inner breeding among the white population of la Reunion...). In France, these issues are closely related to immigration. And, as you mentioned, there are striking generational differences here. I am myself what has since been called "third culture child", i.e. children brought up between different cultures (studies on military brats and missionary kids led to defining similar problems that children raised up in this fashion face). And I personally believe that this is an important factor in the radicalisation of second-generation Muslim immigrants we see today. France is not nearly as "welcoming" as say the US. The outsider, no matter how well treated, always remains an outsider and little to no opportunity is given to him to feel like he "belongs". And I don't simply mean economically. It goes all the way up into the way people think. I'll give you one example. I happen to be non-descript Caucasian (let's put it that way  ). I was born in France, raised through the French educational system, etc. etc. But I happen to have an English-sounding name since my parents are American. It has happened to me on several occasions that, when meeting someone new, I'd talk for a while and they'd be none the wiser. But as soon as I said what my name was, they'd say "I thought you had an accent!" (and trust me I don't, French is my "mother" tongue. I'm much more awkward in English as you've probably noticed by now  ). This desire to pin-point the stranger is so strong that they have the ability of imagining an accent when there is none... A friend of mine from Senegal told me that in France, whenever someone asked him where he was from, the subtext was "you're not from here are you?", but when in the US he got the impression that that same question expressed genuine interest in his story, not a way to single him out from the in-group.) As for the link to radicalisation, well simply put it has to do with how individuals cope to build an identity when they are reject both by their host community and their community of origin. A good read on this issue is Amin Maalouf's "Les identités meurtrières" (translated into English as "In the Name of Identity: Violence and the Need to Belong").
As for Sadiq Khan, I get what your friend was saying, but at the same time I'm not sure I fully agree (as a side note, the starting point of the discussion is not his race, but his religion, pas d'amalgame  ). If it were about his race, then of course in an ideal society we would de facto be color-blind. And of course we should strive to be. If you look at the progression over Obama's two-terms, I think the general debate did move more towards his policies, as the issue of color little by little lost ground (it's still very present, but less so I think than when he was first elected). Nonetheless, there is some significance that for the first time, someone from Sadiq Khan's beliefs (and color in this case) was elected to such a high-position. I see it as two separate planes. The historical precedent on the one hand, and the individual on the other and what he is actually trying to achieve. Of course, this is only one strand of a much larger issue (Obama president didn't prevent the events that led to Black Lives Matter and such, so the issue of race is still very real), but I do think it is telling. Let's put it this way. Until it actually happens (having a Muslim mayor), you'll be left with the doubt that it's simply not possible and perhaps the reason is anti-Muslim bigotry. Once it's happened, they you can at the very least cast that doubt aside and have some grounds to believe that if no Muslims have been elected to that position, it's simply because they weren't any Muslim candidates with the right qualifications or enough impetus to get elected (of course then that brings the debate down to whether minorities have equal opportunities to get the education and tools to be competitive for those positions...and endless debate...). So I'm stuck with this lingering doubt that a French equivalent to Sadiq Khan wouldn't be possible at this point, not because there aren't any suitable candidates but because of the overall anti-Muslim sentiment in the country.
_____________________________
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Date Jun. 19 2016 13:26:06
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: RIP Jo Cox (in reply to Dudnote)
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quote:
IMHO one of the factors that has surely helped with white - Asian integration in the UK has been cricket. France would really be a better country if cricket and not boules was the national sport
Baseball anyone? Actually, it is interesting how sports bring people together, at least superficially, which is better than nothing. The United States, until recently, has never had a history in the Muslim World. But we do have a history in Latin America, the Caribbean, and Japan, and in all those places baseball is hugely popular. Many major league players in the US have come from all of them.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 20 2016 10:40:10
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: RIP Jo Cox (in reply to Dudnote)
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@Dudnote.
Of all the traditional sports in France, you had to go with the most embarrassing one! 
We also have water jousting (a lot of fun to watch), Basque pelota, or to mix boules with bowling, there's always the boule nantaise.
Where I'm from, the two major sports outside of soccer, basketball and the mainstream lot are probably sailing and rink hockey (the Iberians rule the world of rink hockey. I think Spain has won the world cup 16 times and Portugal just about as many times and Spain has always made it, every single f***ing time, to the top four.).
That being said, you may have a point. Last summer, my local grocery store in France had a promotional offer where you got a free set of boules for any 50-euro or more purchase. Only in France.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Jun. 20 2016 15:57:03
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