canon - A stage guitar

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Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

canon - A stage guitar

I'm looking for a powerful Blanca.
What are the guitars you found work better on stage or juerga?

My problem is that my beloved cypress guitars sound satisfactory when I play at home but proved to be unfit for the purpose when I push it hard.
I'm a singer (and a player) and when performing in public my right hand tends to dig hard into the strings to support the voice adequately.
I soon discovered that some guitars can enter in "the shout mode" while others can't do it.

Sanchis, Conde (Pena Vargas etc. ) and "new" cypres Gerundinas usually can fit the purpose.
Many old Ramirez, Barbero style guitars (at least those I tied) and some Granada light top guitars, not so well imho.
Any other name?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 5 2016 7:06:55

Cloth Ears

Posts: 152
Joined: Apr. 26 2005

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to Echi)

Vicente Carrillo cross braced 'Pasion' model has an enormous projection. So much so that you will learn to put less force into your playing for the same result.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 5 2016 8:48:02

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to Echi)

I've personally not found better projection in any guitar than Aaron Green's. That's not to say his guitars are just loud cannons, far from it though they are loud. They are tonally complex, like a grand piano. However the way they are voiced really project like nothing else.

I find a lot of guitars can sound strong when you are right in front of it with big basses and the like but when it comes to projection and cutting through, it's a whole different matter especially on these more modern guitars with lattice and double tops etc. To me they are just loud in the room with less substance behind them.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 5 2016 15:57:37

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to Echi)

quote:

I'm looking for a powerful Blanca.
What are the guitars you found work better on stage or juerga?

If you are on stage, you are using a micro. 1000s of professionals can´t be wrong: buy a Conde.

In a juerga, where everyone is talking and drinking, any guitar will do: nobody will notice the difference.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 5 2016 16:28:20

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to Morante)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante
If you are on stage, you are using a micro. 1000s of professionals can´t be wrong: buy a Conde.

If you're going to mic the guitar why waste money on something expensive. Just buy a Yamaha.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 5 2016 18:08:41

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to tri7/5)

quote:

I find a lot of guitars can sound strong when you are right in front of it with big basses and the like but when it comes to projection and cutting through, it's a whole different matter especially on these more modern guitars with lattice and double tops etc. To me they are just loud in the room with less substance behind them.

That's my point.
Given I look for a blanca, I won't use a mic and I like a medium-hard top pulsacion, what would be your suggestion? Any experience?

Ps. Nothing against Yamaha, but it's not what I'm looking for

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 5 2016 18:17:38

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to Echi)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

Nothing against Yamaha, but it's not what I'm looking for

If you're asking my opinion buy a double-body guitar. They're made for projection. Of course I may be a tiny bit biased since to my knowledge we're the only people making them.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 5 2016 18:27:06

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to Echi)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

quote:

I find a lot of guitars can sound strong when you are right in front of it with big basses and the like but when it comes to projection and cutting through, it's a whole different matter especially on these more modern guitars with lattice and double tops etc. To me they are just loud in the room with less substance behind them.

That's my point.
Given I look for a blanca, I won't use a mic and I like a medium-hard top pulsacion, what would be your suggestion? Any experience?

Ps. Nothing against Yamaha, but it's not what I'm looking for

Yes, would still look at Aaron Green. They have a harder pulsation and fast string reset. I can't make mine top out. Again just my opinion. Don't take my word for it though do a search on here about his guitars or message Aaron himself via his website. Super good guy to deal with and always willing to answer questions.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 5 2016 18:31:13

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to Echi)

I played through the late 1960s and early 1970’s when nobody was amplified – it was just 2 – 4 guitars in 100-500 seat venues. I had the loudest guitar and best projecting guitar – a 68 cedar top Ramirez. Others had cheap Condes (also pretty good) , a Manuel de la Chica, a Manzanero and an earlier Spruce Ramirez. Of course audiences had to listen in a more attentive way – a habit that seems to have disappeared.

If you are singing and playing unamplified in a larger venue one of the problems is to be able to hear yourself play. If you can’t, it denies you the important feedback that enables you to play at your best. A soundport needed perhaps? Well, just as you wouldn’t be seen dead with a Yamaha, I have similar feelings about soundports – we all have our hidden agendas when choosing guitars!

A guitar that goes into “shout mode” sounds like something rather ugly. You use the term “power” rather than “loudness” - replies introduce “projection” The latter term focusses on the a audience perception. This has been discussed in earlier threads without any clear conclusions except that a loud guitar (or loud playing) does not always give the best projection.

Your comments about “pushing a guitar hard” and “digging into the strings” give me a better idea of what you are seeking. You need to be able to play harder without loss of quality of sound (and with no “shouting “ I hope).

There is a myth that Granada luthiers produce guitars without much volume. There might have been some truth in this in the earlier days of the Ferrer workshop but there is a rich variety in Granada to suit all tastes these days. I posted a video in a recent thread of Tomatito playing a 90’s Manuel Bellido at the 2014 Festival de Granada. Guitars of that period would probably suit you very well. You will find one at http://www.guitarsforsale.es/en/ .

A 60s or 70s Conde might be OK. A lightly built blanca of any era with a booming base can be a nightmare in front of a mic where you can get an extra hit due to the proximity effect. But unamplified the problems are less and you might find a guitar like this that works for you.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 5 2016 20:03:01

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to Echi)

quote:

A 60s or 70s Conde might be OK. A lightly built blanca of any era with a booming base can be a nightmare in front of a mic where you can get an extra hit due to the proximity effect. But unamplified the problems are less and you might find a guitar like this that works for you.

Kinda sounds like your saying some guitars are sort of meant to be amplified and some are not meant to be mic'd.. Interesting concept.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 5 2016 22:15:25

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

Kinda sounds like your saying some guitars are sort of meant to be amplified and some are not meant to be mic'd.. Interesting concept.

I am not sure that anyone makes a guitar with booming base (ie not very well balanced) does so to fill a particular niche - just that such guitar might work in the situation described.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 5 2016 22:34:28

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to Echi)

A Shure 57 makes every guitar a "stage guitar" .

Have someone make you a Reyes ish guitar with seven fans and no cutoff bars and thick spruce top. Give it a light bridge and a long scale. High tension strings. You may have too much guitar.
The regular guitars not the double bodied of John's I have played are pretty nice, they don't bottom out and are not stiff either.

Digging too hard with the right hand is a problem it might be wise to examine the right hand technique, many players lay into the right hand more than it really needs, but they usually don't want to hear that. Poeple who "crunch" the sound with a heavy right hand are usually not happy to be told they are crunching it. Crunchy playing is not optimal.

I have backed off making my guitars too stiff even though I love it. I think most players don't want that, I hear a lot of .."is this guitar going to kill me in a cuadro ?"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 6 2016 2:21:19

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to estebanana)

I often wondered about the Glenn Cannin really loud guitars and there change to the bridge ...it says like ...
........A continuous lining connects the sides to the top, which creates a much stiffer "drum rim" effect, but without the added weight of laminated sides. This allows for a thinner, lighter top, resulting in a more responsive and bright sound. The bridge patch is replaced by two lattice braces, making the guitar louder and punchier...

can a luthier (estebanana) explain the bridge bit , out of curiosity....
Thank you

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 6 2016 9:30:09

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to Echi)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

I'm looking for a powerful Blanca.
What are the guitars you found work better on stage or juerga?

My problem is that my beloved cypress guitars sound satisfactory when I play at home but proved to be unfit for the purpose when I push it hard.
I'm a singer (and a player) and when performing in public my right hand tends to dig hard into the strings to support the voice adequately.
I soon discovered that some guitars can enter in "the shout mode" while others can't do it.

Sanchis, Conde (Pena Vargas etc. ) and "new" cypres Gerundinas usually can fit the purpose.
Many old Ramirez, Barbero style guitars (at least those I tied) and some Granada light top guitars, not so well imho.
Any other name?

Acoustically, the loudest guitars I have come into contact with, (and volume is a relative concept so I would have to justify this opinion with an objective test I can't do now), were by Contreras. I mean loud and still sound good. Cypress backs. But in a Juerga, the loudest guitar won't be heard unless you are just bashing chords.

Cannin guitars are loud but I only played plywood (double top) negras. In general I say you can drive Blanca's hard and they don't bottom out like negras, but negras were designed so you could play softer and get more out of the guitar after all. You already list Conde Sanchis etc, pretty much the best for when you close mic and crank volume without need for notching too much frequency out, very dry pure guitar sound. In my own collection I have a jeronimo Peña Fernandez negra that really projects when I dig in acoustically. On stage I just can't close mic it, too much frequency needs to be notched.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 6 2016 12:11:55

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

I often wondered about the Glenn Cannin really loud guitars and there change to the bridge ...it says like ...
........A continuous lining connects the sides to the top, which creates a much stiffer "drum rim" effect, but without the added weight of laminated sides. This allows for a thinner, lighter top, resulting in a more responsive and bright sound. The bridge patch is replaced by two lattice braces, making the guitar louder and punchier...

can a luthier (estebanana) explain the bridge bit , out of curiosity....
Thank you

Oh yes, indeed. He is working the cross grain stiffness up while keeping the mass down. Stiff side to side across the bridge gets a loud bright guitar, until it gets too stiff to feel good and too brash. There is a happy medium. The two sticks are like fan brace size and he puts them parallel to the bridge in different places. Probably should not say more than that.

The stiff rim thing is anecdotal, it does something, but it has been elusive to prove with any testing other than listening tests, and opinions vary.
Stiff rim is an idea that is mainly used for classical guitars and has become a pretty normal thing in modern steel string construction too. The concept is to make the rim inviolate to torsional forces under string tension. The top is more free and independent than a connecting surface meant to stiffen the ribs assembly. The idea s to make ribs and rim so stiff they don't need the top as a plane surface on top of them to add local stiffness when connecting the glue blocks together, this lets top act as free agent without torsional stresses from string tension.

This rim/rib torsion resistance is important on designs with fragile tops like Smallman's and Nomex tops that are delicate. The top is not used as part of the super structure of the guitar, but as a pure membrane glued over this solid frame. Think of a snare drum. The system works great if you are looking for brightness, punch, LOUDness and quick tempo response of string recovery. These are all good qualities to work out.

The reason I say take it all as anecdotal is because some of the best known concert guitar makers never did this. They worked at these factors from another angle or did not put as much emphasis on them. Or they got similar results with more plain techniques. The famous Hauser guitars often had glue bocks with gaps between them and Romanillos too and those guitars are projectors. I made a guitar with one side super stiff liner and one side gapped glue blocks so I could feel the difference in flex of the rim. After mulling this over for years I came to the conclusion each way works really well and does not sound a great deal different between a solid stiff liner and good glue blocks, provided you build the top and bridge right.

I also think that is is possible a bit of flex in the rim might be good for flamenco sound and that some give in the ribs also contributes to flamenco voice. The ribs are giving off some sound on their own and if they are really stiff they will work with some high frequency. If the ribs are super stiff and basically 'dead' , that is not a thing I find useful in making flamencos, I think there something to having thin ribs that are not too stiff and that they absorb some of the energy.

That said the continuous solid liner was used by Torres, and even Santos Hernandez, it's not a new idea, but the concept of stiff torsion resisting box is a newer idea that has a lot of proponents around.

See the Dominique Field guitar I posted in Harmonic Bars- stiff ribs to the max

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 6 2016 12:25:26

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

The stiff rim thing is anecdotal, it does something, but it has been elusive to prove with any testing other than listening tests, and opinions vary.
Stiff rim is an idea that is mainly used for classical guitars and has become a pretty normal thing in modern steel string construction too. The concept is to make the rim inviolate to torsional forces under string tension. The top is more free and independent than a connecting surface meant to stiffen the ribs assembly. The idea s to make ribs and rim so stiff they don't need the top as a plane surface on top of them to add local stiffness when connecting the glue blocks together, this lets top act as free agent without torsional stresses from string tension.

I've thought that this is some of the reason for the double body guitar's improved projection. The two sets of sides are spaced apart by blocking and become very stiff as a result.

Being the inquisitive sort, when I first saw a double body guitar (Joaquin Garcia) I decided to make a shell that could slip over my existing flamenco guitar. It was held in place by blocks and wedges and worked sort of like a resonator on a banjo. We performed many tests with that gadget in living rooms, auditoriums and noisy shop conditions before deciding to proceed with a pure double body design. We've found it works best for classic guitars and double flamencos are an acquired taste since they are heavier and the sound is projected out the front making it feel less intimate for the player.

Sorry, I don't mean to highjack this thread.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 6 2016 14:01:44

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to estebanana)

thank you for your extensive reply .. i will read it a few times to get it to sink in ....

hi jack away Mr Shelton , Im sure its all good info for Echi as well ,, and youve already done some experiments

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 6 2016 14:24:03

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Kiko

hi jack away Mr Shelton , Im sure its all good info for Echi as well ,, and youve already done some experiments

And so the eternal problem is revealed with statements about what causes certain effects. No one could ever build enough guitars to really perform a worthwhile experiment (no criticism of Stephen's statements intended). When you come down to it, it's all conjecture and supposition. For example what really is the difference between a thick top with light braces and a thin top with stout braces. I've played other maker's guitars of both types and built both types myself that were truly outstanding in every way.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 6 2016 20:39:49

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to Echi)

Thank you: many good advices.
As I'm based in Europe I'd go for an Europan guitar. I presume it's both easier and cheaper.
I tried a Shelton Farretta years ago when I was in NYC and found it lovely but it wasn't a double body model.

I don't agree totally with Estebana, when he said it's just a matter of right hand teqnique.
Of course there is something true, but it's also true that many pro players look for a stiffer guitar when in concert (Paco amongst all).
The projection of the singing (which I called "shout mode") is something true: you can be as much as loud but projecting less or more according to your technique. It's not always the same with the guitars.
Somehow there are guitars planned to have projection and other guitars for which projection is an optional.
I'm looking for the first type out of necessity.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 7 2016 7:58:51

etta

Posts: 341
Joined: Jan. 20 2010

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to Echi)

I am always somewhat amused that when the thread is about making a good guitar, or what makes a good guitar, the builders cited as examples of such work almost never comment on this "foro." (Examples here mentioned, A. Green and G. Canin). I suppose they are too busy building guitars.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 7 2016 20:55:42

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to etta)

quote:

ORIGINAL: etta

I am always somewhat amused that when the thread is about making a good guitar, or what makes a good guitar, the builders cited as examples of such work almost never comment on this "foro." (Examples here mentioned, A. Green and G. Canin). I suppose they are too busy building guitars.

You're probably right I understand they are both excellent luthiers. I have more time nowadays to post on this foro since I've been building for about 50 years and am now semi-retired with an output of no more than three or four a year. At 74 one doesn't have the energy or concentration required to put in 8 hours a day. Just ask Tom Blackshear as I think he may have a year or two on me.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 7 2016 21:28:50

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to etta)

quote:

I am always somewhat amused that when the thread is about making a good guitar, or what makes a good guitar, the builders cited as examples of such work almost never comment on this "foro." (Examples here mentioned, A. Green and G. Canin). I suppose they are too busy building guitars.

We can stop explaing stuff anytime and turn it over to anyone else who wants to field questions.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 8 2016 4:37:59

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to Echi)

quote:

I am always somewhat amused that when the thread is about making a good guitar, or what makes a good guitar, the builders cited as examples of such work almost never comment on this "foro." (Examples here mentioned, A. Green and G. Canin). I suppose they are too busy building guitars.

Even more amusing when people armchair quarterback.
What a pompous statement.........

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 8 2016 5:19:45

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: canon - A stage guitar (in reply to Echi)

quote:

the builders cited as examples of such work almost never comment on this "foro.

Maybe if you make a buzz to them telling you are here they'll join

.
Many good makers follow this forum while Aaron writes in a different one.
Many Spanish makers often have a problem of language or write under nickname.
Thanks Ricardo for the suggestion of Contreras. I'll check.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 8 2016 7:09:42