Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
[Deleted]
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
Dudnote
Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
|
 RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to chester)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: chester
Who's JM?
I guess he means Juan Martin. It's funny, about a year or two before I started studying flamenco I did see a JM show in a small 16th century wooden theatre.I was with a girl who I married one year later, it was her first trip to England. We sat in the stalls and the show opened with 2 cantaors - one a gitano singing traditional flamenco style, the other a man of Arabic origin singing in accordance with his roots - just some meters either side of us. That was my first flamenco show and we knew nothing, zero, about flamenco back then, but the impact of those exchanges between those singers either side of us was very memorable and we enjoyed what we interpreted as a fusion. There was at least 1 drummer (perhaps 3) with an Indian or Arabic finger drum. I don't recall if the dance was mixing styles, but Juan signalled to his two singers and made a reference to the two historical influences, gypsy & Arabic, on cante. We thouroughly enjoyed the show.
I wonder now, 16 flamenco years later, if I would enjoy that show more or less now than I did back then??
_____________________________
Ay compañerita de mi alma
tú ahora no me conoces.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date May 30 2016 3:09:29
 |
|
RobJe
Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK
|
|
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)
|
|
|
quote:
I am personally of the mind this particular branch was a wrong turn
Living things evolve.
Thankfully flamenco is alive. If it was just a matter of endlessly repeating what happened in some imagined golden age it would be dead.
Evolution involves new directions, some of which fall by the wayside and others survive. Nobody controls how things develop, there are no rules. It is probably not helpful to use phrases such as "a wrong turn".
Solo flamenco guitar is a relatively new phenomenon – not much more than 80 years old. You can appreciate it without reference to any of the others parts of flamenco but you might be missing out on a much richer experience.
There is always grumbling and resistance to change but people sometimes get over it. Poor old Juanito Valderrama with his unusual (in modern terms) light lyrical voice was ostracised by the flamenco community for commercialisation – appearing in popular films like El Emigrante and selling millions of records. Eventually he was rehabilitated and there is now a tribute “homenaje” recording with Manolo García, José Mercé, Silvia Pérez Cruz, Martirio, Estrella Morente, Pasión Vega, Diana Navarro, Arcángel, Miguel Poveda, Ana Belén y Víctor Manuel and others. Some of his contempories were never forgiven!
Rob
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date May 30 2016 12:53:07
|
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Piwin)
|
|
|
quote:
my own personal preference lies with Sabicas more so than with what came after.
Hear, hear! As I've stated often enough on the Foro, my all-time favorite was, and is, Sabicas. More so than Paco de Lucia, Tomatito, Vicente Amigo, and a host of others. That's not to say I don't enjoy listening to those who followed Sabicas; I do. But to my mind Sabicas is the gold standard of flamenco guitar.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date May 30 2016 13:18:40
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Morante)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Morante
quote:
Manolo García, José Mercé, Silvia Pérez Cruz, Martirio, Estrella Morente, Pasión Vega, Diana Navarro, Arcángel, Miguel Poveda, Ana Belén y Víctor Manuel and others.
A strange tribute from many lesser flamencos and non flamencos  Juan knew how to sing all the palos of flamenco and deserves better.
Exactly. Don't know why I keep getting sucked into these discussions online. Once again, there is a time and place to talk smack and make your laundry list of all the stuff you can't tolerate and lament the good ol days are gone. The simple fact is this: Nobody that actually knows about singing would put down valderrama...there was not "rehabilitation" of his value as a cantaor it was and is always understood by those that freaking get it. Same deal with Marchena and others.
Another fact is nobody that can play at high level flamenco guitar would talk about PDL as many do that can't get over an electric bass. It's ridiculous frankly. And finally, modern flamenco guitar is simply more advanced music, end of story. There might be equally or more difficult things of the very old trad repertoire that are physically challenging for anyone, but the modern flamenco guitar has evolved to a higher more sophisticated level, period, end of story. From there we can keep generalizing pointlessly about what we like or don't like, or we can get into specifics. 12 years ago I was defending that Trafalgar was even "flamenco" at all instead of PURE JAZZ, and here are some people saying there is not much to it that screams "modern". 
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date May 31 2016 7:46:33
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Piwin)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
quote:
If you want to have an open minded discussion about what is going on it has to go there.
So, in the case of Trafalgar (first time I asked my teacher to walk me through that piece, I asked for Gibraltar by Gerardo Nunez. He wasn't happy. at all.  ), what is going on that makes it "modern"?
If it's syncopation, the main melody doesn't seem any more syncopated than more traditional pieces (except maybe a few passages). The arpeggios that accompany the melody are more complex and more syncopated though than more traditional stuff IMO so maybe that's part of it?
Or is it the drop-D tuning (and different key) that isn't common with bulerias that makes people think of it as a modern piece?
Or all/none of the above?
Specifics are good because we can do away with labels and generalizations. First point...the melody IS all arpeggio and is VERY syncopated. The opening theme sets up a soniquete with a special right hand formula on the D chord, such that the accents play against the time in a nice way that allows half compas to pass unnoticed. The first chord change he hits strongly leading the 12 accent (meaning it comes between 11 and 12 or between 5 and 6 in the half compas, and it changes if you try to count only in 12). That chord is basically a Cminor over D bass, then an F#dim7th descending pattern gets back on beat. So basically the melody is all over the map compas wise. It is only because he is so precise and the timing space is filled up by arpeggio that it seems like a simple rhythm. You sit down with palmas and try that opening theme and soon confront with a very big challenge to drive compas and not lose or rush it and it becomes clear why the cajon or whatever is very nice to have grooving along. As you might go through and try other sections you find more and more very rich rhythmic things going on with the right hand patterns, and it is necessary to work it out perfectly in order to make that (seemingly) simple pretty melody come to life.
Impetu is mentioned and there is a direct quote from this, the baroque sounding section about 1:36. It starts on the Dm 9th and continues a pattern that Escudero used but on different chords. Escudero goes Dm-Gm-C-Bb...Gerardo took the idea through Dm-A7/G-Dm/F-Gm-Dm...etc. So he took a traditional idea and really ran with it and developed it. A lot of modern flamenco ideas are disguised in this way. I only noticed myself after learning both pieces.
The last point about the drop D, and I would add to that the key changes (D phrygian, D major, D minor shifts) are as old as flamenco guitar is. Perhaps not for bulerias, but the tonal practice of it was done in flamenco at least as far back as Ramon Montoya (Guajiras, Rondeña, etc). Parallel key changes are at the heart of what the cante has always done por bulerias anyway.
So what makes this piece "modern" not traditional, we need only look to the rhythmic treatment, the date it was composed, and recognize the little fragments that the music evolved from (impetu predates this clearly). Unfortunately the important distinction, the rhythm, can be just whizzing over people's heads.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date May 31 2016 8:17:06
|
|
estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
|
|
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
quote:
Typical attitude...to shun the metronome. The old players understood it perfectly well. Palmas are the metronome. As music gets more syncopated the solid tempo beat is required to have a concept of soniquete. It's not about any struggle artistically with restraints of rhythm. The music has evolved to a point that to hear the reference against the sophisticated melody is a beautiful way to express soniquete (swing and groove) that a meandering, wavering pulse destroys. The whole point is to take music higher and higher on that level.
"Jazz chords" or extensions of 9 11 13 are already present in the old toques for the most part. Treatment or use of the traditional structures is what has changed. If you want to not like or understand what is going on at the higher level, then your opinion, tastes and preferences will stay with what you can wrap your ear around. That is fine, but all the rest of guitar students that wish to advance will need to understand what is happening and confront the issue of compas directly whether they like it or not. If you want to have an open minded discussion about what is going on it has to go there. If you just want to vent that the good ol days of flamenco guitar are gone (as far too many have already done), then that is a different topic.
Anyway, no band, not second guitar, no jazz:
Who that terrible solo player? Like I always say solo playing is so awful, no arte, no singing. God it is so, so, so........Good.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 1 2016 7:34:38
|
|
Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
|
|
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen
quote:
The Spaniard expressed disgust and said he would rather listen to Fernando Sirvent, the house guitarist, than to Sabicas with all his elaborate show-off modernisms.
Ah! Good old Fernando Sirvent! I remember a record of his getting a rave review from Discus (Jack Duarte) in BMG, which dates me as much as you.
Whatever happened to him?
I was only slightly acquainted with Fernando. Actually I knew his sister Amor Sirvent better. She had a gift shop with Spanish items and a flamenco dance school near Dupont Circle in Washington DC. It was near
Sophocles Pappas's Guitar Shop, so I would stop by both when I was in DC.
When I first stopped in at Amor's shop, she showed me a guitar she was selling for a friend. It was a blanca, better than the one I had at the time. I played a few soleares falsetas on it. Amor nodded, then started talking about her dance students. "These American girls," she said, "they always say they want to express themselves!. They don't understand that flamenco is rules, rules, rules!"
I was in the U.S. Army, stationed at Aberdeen Proving Ground, not too far north of Baltimore. When I shipped out to Fort Lewis, Washington I lost touch with the New York/Washington flamenco scene, but Juan Serrano was part of the Spanish crew at the Seattle World's Fair, so I could get a little flamenco fix there.
RNJ
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 2 2016 16:29:27
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.078125 secs.
|
Printable Version
