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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2016 19:42:32

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Guest)

Mundo Flamenco is in Germany

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Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2016 20:03:11

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Guest)

Here is also a nice second hand guitar site in Germany.

http://www.vioworld.de/musikermarkt/entry/list/both/category/22/?org_openpsa_qbpager_entries_page_page=1

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2016 21:37:10

mecmachin

Posts: 171
Joined: Aug. 7 2010

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Guest)

a top luthier in Munich is Gert Esmyol.
https://www.google.fr/#q=gitarrenbauer%20m%C3%BCnchen&tbs=lf:1,lf_ui:1&rflfq=1&rlha=0&rllag=48138030,11582155,2501&tbm=lcl&rlfi=hd:;si:14181745167577217347
not sure however if he can build something in this price region.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2016 10:40:57

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Cervantes)

quote:

Mundo Flamenco is in Germany

Mundo Flamenco is not a luthier.

There´s a lot of good luthiers in Germany but the price level is normally 2 - 3 times what you write. (or more!)
to build and sell for 2 - 3k$ in Europe and especiallly in Northern Europe is only for idiots like myself. And I will stop doing so very soon. I am a little bit tired of being an idiot and would like a change. Maybe half-idiot would be acceptable.

Vince, an active luthier in the lutherie section lives in Germany. You could ask him if he would like to work for slave money.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2016 12:05:54

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2016 22:56:08

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Guest)

Dont feel bad. Please. I enjoyed making your guitar and now I sit here and enjoy that you still like it.

Besides. Its quite a few years ago (8 - 9 years?) and your guitar is a 1A. I think my price was the same back then as now, because it hasnt been possible to raise it. So... I didn´t feel like a slave with respect of your guitar. :-)

But 2k yankee dollares is way to low for a luthier built guitar especially in the socalled develloped world. We cant survive like that or we have to built semi serial production like many guitars are built in small factories and then its NOT a luthier built guitar.

Also... Something that made me think ... Just a few weeks ago I had 2 2A guitars on sale for 1700,-€ each. 2 portugese guys showed up with high name guitars from Spanish luthiers worth around 3500 or more. Each both well played in, mature and fully develloped. They tried my two guitars. One was a month old and the other 3 days old! Both had been played 30 minuts max.
Both of my guitars were clearly superior to one of the other guitars and on par with the second one. So the two guys bought my 2 guitars and left happily.

I wont continue like that. I was happy that they bought my guitars and more so that they liked them but its not a way of living, so I´m in a process of selling out everything, reevaluate my life and do something about it. That might mean stop building or building a lot less and selling with German luthier prices.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2016 7:22:26

IraqiOud

Posts: 41
Joined: Apr. 3 2016
From: Iraq, Living in North Carolina

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Dont feel bad. Please. I enjoyed making your guitar and now I sit here and enjoy that you still like it.

Besides. Its quite a few years ago (8 - 9 years?) and your guitar is a 1A. I think my price was the same back then as now, because it hasnt been possible to raise it. So... I didn´t feel like a slave with respect of your guitar. :-)

But 2k yankee dollares is way to low for a luthier built guitar especially in the socalled develloped world. We cant survive like that or we have to built semi serial production like many guitars are built in small factories and then its NOT a luthier built guitar.

Also... Something that made me think ... Just a few weeks ago I had 2 2A guitars on sale for 1700,-€ each. 2 portugese guys showed up with high name guitars from Spanish luthiers worth around 3500 or more. Each both well played in, mature and fully develloped. They tried my two guitars. One was a month old and the other 3 days old! Both had been played 30 minuts max.
Both of my guitars were clearly superior to one of the other guitars and on par with the second one. So the two guys bought my 2 guitars and left happily.

I wont continue like that. I was happy that they bought my guitars and more so that they liked them but its not a way of living, so I´m in a process of selling out everything, reevaluate my life and do something about it. That might mean stop building or building a lot less and selling with German luthier prices.

I've only been in this forum for a very short period of time and I only got to watch the film that features you building a guitar on YouTube two months ago but from what I've seen in that film, I would say it will be big loss if someone like you stops building.. Maybe you need to revise your marketing strategy as well as other aspects of running your business (but who am I to tell you what to do after all these years of experience in building instruments) however to stop building doesn't seem for someone like you.. You seemed very passionate about what you were doing (Like any true artist luthier should be).

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Ali

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2016 9:35:21

Argaith

Posts: 481
Joined: May 6 2009
From: Iran (living in London)

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

I am a little bit tired of being an idiot and would like a change.

Wish I could afford to get an order in before you change

Jokes aside, when I can afford to commission a new guitar (ideally one of Anders'), I would like the luthier to be perfectly happy.

A

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2016 11:48:00

bernd

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Guest)

Just a few remarks in order to luthiers in Germany, because I live in the middle of Germany and might say that I have a quite good overview about the luthiers in our country.

1) We have very few luthiers builiding flamenco guitars as well in order to a very small market. Luthiers builiding flamlencas, too, are
- Brunswicker & Apelt (Frankfurt)
- Stefan Schlemper (Worpswede)
- Thorsten Lietz (Essen)
- Wolfgang Suttner (Groß-Zimmern)
- Erik Krause (Freiburg) He built a long neck flamenca for Tomatito
- Katarina Wolf (Göttingen)
- Martin Duwe (Mainz)
- Gert Esmyol (Munich)

There is no way to get a German luthier made flamenca at 2 to 3 k$ or €. At this range there is no better option to buy Anders´ 1A. The alternative can be the Camps Concierto from Spain, but it doesn´t sound that bright and crispy as Ander´s 1A, and it costs more.

2) Mundo Flamenco (Freiburg) is not a luthier but a specialized dealer with a world wide top noch reputation. He has the best biggest hand selected flamenco guitar collection in Europe.

3) Vioworld is an online classified ad magazine where also some decievers deal there. So keep an eye on dubious payment suggestions and declare your own safe option to keep it strictly up! There were several posts on German guitar forums the last 2 years.

4) To Anders:
I´m sorry to read your words and I´m still dreaming of your 1 A. I´m sure one day I´ll be happy to earn enough money to get it. With reference to IraqiOud I suggest, too, to re-organize your marketing activities. When I talk about flamencas with German guitarists and you are named, people tell me they heard a little bit via my posts here in on my community, but there is no apperance like your guitars were out of reach, while your pricing is absolutely competitive. Please don´t feel offendet by the following statement: Only the cheap discounter like Aldi and Lidl can make a good business by selling via the price.

Today I have phoned with a German luthier (not named here) regarding his student flamenca, based on his entrance classical model. This model is only built on customers request. The entrance line will only be built, if he has some apprentices, because it takes too much effort to build them. So he has focused to have a good market position in the 2.500 to 3.000 € range. Furthermore from time to time he is present at the guitar festivals. Johannes, the owner of Mundo Flamenco, made exhibitions at flamenco festivals during 90th and 2000th years and reached a high level of brand awareness. Today, marketing doesn´t work anymore as it did in the beginning of the 2000th years, that´s over! Having a website, a good reputation and a youtube channel is much to less for today. The internet can still be used to get to generate profitable leads, but the strategy has changed. You cannot wait for the customers to come to you hoping to get sold some guitars. E. g. you´ll need to let the birds fly out to get a better attraction ;-)
Please take my words as and advice. Maybe you can think a little bit before you might make a wrong decission.

Saludos
Bernd

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2016 12:20:00

gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

And I will stop doing so very soon.

Anders, I understand when highlights the great difference between the instrumental and artistic value of your guitars and their sale price, certainly your guitars are worth LOT more (You will remember that I have the great fortune of having two of yours!) .... I play with friends who have Ramirez and Conde from 10,000 Euros and beyond! .... but certainly mine are "muy! muy flamenco" ! .. ... you have every reason to complain about the unfavorable gap between the price of your guitars and their actual value .... But know that your guitars become an important part of the life of other people ......so my hope is that you DO NOT stop to build these magnificent guitars.

best wishes for your future Anders! :-)

ciao
giambattista

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2016 14:45:50

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to bernd)

I remember when George Lowden was making great guitars in Northern Ireland, with only local success. He managed to place one of his guitars in a prestigious Paris guitar shop. His business took off.

My friend Rafael Lopez worked just like Anders until he made friends with a University lecturer in French, who travelled regularly to Paris. She took one of his guitars to show and soon he was selling more in France than in Cádiz.

My primo Jero has a brother who sing coplas and has many connections in Jerez. Through him the jerezanos discovered Jero´s guitars and his business took off.

Marketing works.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2016 15:26:19

bernd

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Morante)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

My primo Jero has a brother who sing coplas and has many connections in Jerez. Through him the jerezanos discovered Jero´s guitars and his business took off.

Marketing works.

I totally agree. In German this is called "aktives Empfehlungsmarketing", based on personal info by giving recommendations to others who are interested in this subject. This is a very good option in the offline world.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2016 16:04:06

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Guest)

Thanks a lot for all your encouraging words. Its my own fault that I´m an idiot.

I´m the one that hasnt raised my prices and I´m the one that have made to many 2A guitars. My life has been very difficult for the last 6 years. Its not easy to have your loved one diagnosed Motor-neurone, put her in the ground after 2 horrible years and try to smile after that. And its been very difficult to have an income that could pay the bills etc... blah blah blah.

But dont worry guys.
I actually feel good about stopping for a while and maybe starting up with a new concept.
I will 99% sure leave Spain VERY soon and move to Denmark. There its impossible to be a full time luthier and survive . But I´m happy if I can take my workshop with me, set it up and build a little bit here and there and maybe sell something here and there. But dont expect my prices to stay where they are and my orderlist is closed. I´m in a moment of my life where I cant really be bothered anymore. I build because I like it. I build better than ever and thats fine for me for now.

Yes marketing.... Isnt that a bitch that would be nice to live without.

If the German guitarists dont know me, then its because they are blo*dy ignorants. hehehe. Their problem.
So cheers to all the german luthiers and musicians. I hope you are all well and happy. Germany is such a nice country. (I actually mean it)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2016 19:16:06

bernd

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Guest)

The Germans know you but there is no option to check your guitars over here. Do you think this would change by going to Denmark? Your guitar that was sold by Mundo Flamenco some 10 years or longer ago is not in the heads of the guitarists anymore. All German luthiers, exceptional Wolfgang Suttner, build flamencas on buyers request exclusively. The two good "numbers" are Mundo Flamenco and Sicca, where guitarist buy. There is also a new website project up to come in summer that can support you to have a better presence around here in Germany.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2016 20:14:38

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

99% sounds like you're pretty certain of your next move ;-)
I've enjoyed reading your posts in the short time I've been here and do hope that you won't dissappear from the foro.
Best of luck with whatever you decide to do!
Cheers,

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2016 20:25:45

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Guest)

quote:

The Germans know you but there is no option to check your guitars over here.

So why are germans so picky? the huge amount of the almost 130 guitars that I have sold all over the world, the client had no option to check my guitars.

So what you suggest is to leave a lot of guitars in shops i Germany? Maybe I will do so in the far future but then my prices will have to go up with 50 - 100%.
Another thing could be building less flamenco guitars and more classicals. Many options... I could also just stop building and shut up.

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2016 9:07:08

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

I could also just stop building and shut up

You have rare, genuine skills but I understand that sometimes one has to reassess one's life and maybe try something new, somewhere different. The skills and tools stay with you so you can always return to it, down the road.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

p.s. if you build boats in Denmark, I'll make another documentary

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2016 9:49:56

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Piwin)

quote:

99% sounds like you're pretty certain of your next move ;-)
I've enjoyed reading your posts in the short time I've been here and do hope that you won't dissappear from the foro.
Best of luck with whatever you decide to do!
Cheers,

Thanks Piwin.
I can imagine that I will be back on the foro. Its a old story for me. I´m not angry at anyone and I like the place. but I may take a good long break. It can be very healthy
I´ve been a member since July 2003. I know my profile says autumn 2006 but its because I forgot my login and just made a new one after a summer break..

So you add +3 years and a couple of thousand posts.

Just like a few other members, I´m not like an old walpaper, I´m like the wallpaper behind the old wallpaper. You know the kind of thing that sticks to the original wall and is hard to get rid off.

Escribano: I´m 99% sure I will have my workshop set up one day and that I will go out there and do stuff. But I´m far from sure that I will follow that line that some kind persons here suggest, building a lot, PR, marketing strategies, shops, a new haircut and so on. You, know the usual story about how this world funcions and how we have to behave. I hate all that crap and it definately has a negative impact on finetuning guitars and other sensible things.

I think I´m more into sailing than building boats in Denmark. But who knows, I must admit that I have an eye on a couple of beautifull small craft.

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2016 10:07:11

minorthang

Posts: 222
Joined: Dec. 25 2014

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Guest)

i also enjoy reading your posts anders and as i know your german, so living in spain , your a linguist and great musician not just on guitar i have seen on your website too build a guitar for msot would be a dream your doing that amigo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2016 11:27:42

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I'm feeling very fortunate at the moment being the owner of an Eliasson 1A

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2016 11:35:46

Goldwinghai

Posts: 215
Joined: Mar. 17 2015
From: Virginia USA

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Guest)

I've read Anders's blog and his numerous posts, and found his life story a very interesting one: a foreigner making a living in building guitars in the country where the Spanish guitars are well known around the world. A few snapshots of his life were shown in his short account of building guitar 100 during the most difficult time of his life. A real tragedy. I can't imagine the pain he had to endure. I guess he glossed over it so well by giving us the detailed illustration of building guitar 100, which was so clearly documented. Perhaps DavidRG can set up an interview podcast with Anders. I apologize if my suggestion is out of line.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2016 13:16:39

bernd

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

So why are germans so picky?

It is a typical part of our mentality, so every detail has to be proven correctly. Most Germans, not like me, decide way more conservatively, particularly on special items. Additionally, the market of buyers is very small here. So many of them buy at the other two shops or directly travel directly to the guitar workshops. They visit guitar festivals, too. Exhibiting there is much better in pricing instead of big events like the Frankfurt Musikmesse.

In the past we had 4 shops providing better flamenca assortments, but that´s history. It´s not what I mean. I´ll send you an email or call you by phone. Just give me some time, maybe a few days.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2016 14:11:16

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Thanks a lot for all your encouraging words. Its my own fault that I´m an idiot....

I actually feel good about stopping for a while and maybe starting up with a new concept. I will 99% sure leave Spain VERY soon and move to Denmark. There its impossible to be a full time luthier and survive . But I´m happy if I can take my workshop with me, set it up and build a little bit here and there and maybe sell something here and there. But dont expect my prices to stay where they are and my orderlist is closed. I´m in a moment of my life where I cant really be bothered anymore. I build because I like it. I build better than ever and thats fine for me for now.

Anders,

You certainly are not an idiot. You are one of the saner voices on the Foro. I have enjoyed reading your posts over the years, and I have appreciated your determination to do things the way you want to do them, and not the way others think you should do them.

I'm sure that getting out of your rut in Spain and moving to Denmark will be like a breath of fresh air. Spain has its charms, but so does Denmark. When I was in the U.S. Air Force, based in Bremerhaven, Germany in the 1960s, I drove to Denmark on at least four different occasions and loved it. It is now considered the "happiest" country on earth, according to a recent poll. I don't know what that means; at one time Bhutan was listed as the "happiest" country on earth. But I don't doubt that Denmark is up there at the top, however one defines "happy."

Buy a boat. Go sailing. set up your luthier's shop and turn out your high-quality guitars at your own pace. Take a break from the Foro, but please do not abandon it completely. I will look forward to your posts from Denmark.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2016 14:46:45

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Maybe I will do so in the far future but then my prices will have to go up with 50 - 100%.

My lady is a doctor of occupational therapy, she was charging private clients $50 an hour, we found out the posh clinic she worked for was charging $150 an hour, I told her to raise her price to new private clients and since then she's now turning down clients she has so many. People think she's a great therapist because she's charging a lot and she is a good therapist but she's the same therapist she was when she was charging $50.
Part of this is now she lives in th middle of the city with me so the market exists of people willing to pay $150 an hour for their kids therapy. There was no market for that in the suburbs.

Move to Denmark near a big city and charge $$$$$$ you're worth it.

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2016 15:38:58

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Anders

Don´t leave Andalucía without a visit to Cádiz. I would like to meet you personally and have a cerveza and a buena tapa contigo.

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2016 15:45:41

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Luthiers in Germany (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Just like a few other members, I´m not like an old walpaper, I´m like the wallpaper behind the old wallpaper. You know the kind of thing that sticks to the original wall and is hard to get rid off.

About three years ago, there was a story in the newspaper about some drawings that were discovered behind old wallpaper. A building in Brussels was being renovated. The workmen tore through 5 or 6 layers of old wallpaper and beneath it they found some 50-year old drawings by Franquin, Roba and Peyo (famous cartoonists in the French-speaking world). If I had to find a moral to that story, it'd probably be something along the lines of how old wallpaper often has more value than the Ikea gunk we've laid over it, or something like that...Anyways, the whole wall-paper business just reminded of that story.

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 16 2016 19:26:17