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Hey friends - no technique has given me more frustration than the abanico P(up) m+a (down) P(down) rasgueado. Grrr..
I've tried everything it seems: going slow.. playing "4's" for what is normally a triplet rhythm to even it out.
using only the thumb part and omiting the fingers, with goal being add them in.
My triplet abanico w/ P(up) a (down) i (down) is fine. My triplet Jerez rasg a (up) i (up) i (down) is fine. Just can't get the 'power' rasguado that I want so damn bad!!!
When I see Tomatito, Vicente and Antonio Reyes do it, it's looks.. perfect. Sounds it too.
Yet I scarcely see it used by Diego del Morao, and I don't know if I've ever seen Paco use it.
Is this maybe just one of those things where I don't have the combination of brain/hands/wrist, etc etc?.. Am I alone?
Maybe if I upload a vid someone could help?.. but I doubt it. Seriously: it's been 10 years of working on this and I'm just treading water, but I see progress in every other technique.
RE: Put me on Abanico suicide watch!! (in reply to turnermoran)
It's always felt really awkward to me too. I just can't imagine ever getting it up to the speeds where it would be really effective. I use the other two you mentioned and make do, but nothing matches the raw power of the "Marote" rasgueado.
I'm tempted to say it's a physiological thing, depending on the length of your fingers...
I know that if you are dedicated enough you can learn any technique but I also know that certain techniques come easier to certain people. Picado has always been super challenging to me, I think because my m finger is a LOT longer than my i finger. It just never flows smoothly and causes tension no matter what I do. Should probably switch to i-a picado...
RE: Put me on Abanico suicide watch!! (in reply to turnermoran)
Take solice and knowing you're not alone at least. I've been at a wall for about 2 years with it. It's like my hand is too big to just whip back and forth so quickly. I dunno.......I've read all the threads about this....
Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA
RE: Put me on Abanico suicide watch!! (in reply to turnermoran)
I have also had some frustration with this technique. You can play it P-m-P or even P-a-P (Paco Pena style) I worked on it some with my teacher and he pointed out that I wasn't bringing the m finger back into my palm enough and I did feel some resistance when trying to do that. Since P is going both up and down you are going to have rotate your wrist more back and forth more but don't move your forearm. You can also try accenting one finger / stroke and then switch the accent to another finger. Also use your friend the metronome. I have definitely made a lot of improvement but as always have a long way to go. Don't give up it will come along over time.
_____________________________
Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Put me on Abanico suicide watch!! (in reply to turnermoran)
We are all different I guess. That is my best ras by far. The standard a,m,i down with I up is the one I can never do well. really frustrating because that's a basic solea one. The Marote(p up, am down, p down) is probably my strongest single technique. Until a couple years ago when I lost my thumb nail. I got that fungus that just destroyed my thumb nail. I took the pill that cures it, and it cured it until it grew back out all funky again. I don't want to take it again because it causes liver damage. At this point my thumb nail is completely disconnected from the nail bed, so I can't even use fakes-there is no support. So, consider yourselves lucky.
RE: Put me on Abanico suicide watch!! (in reply to turnermoran)
Oddly it's one of the easiest techniques for me. On the other hand I envy you if you can handle the pai abanico. Never managed to get anything at all out of that one. Might be physiological. In the meantime, do upload a vid if you can. You may be right that nobody will be able to help but who knows...worth a shot.
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
RE: Put me on Abanico suicide watch!! (in reply to turnermoran)
Have you tried P-M-P? I don't play much nowadays so cannot demonstrate, but I found it easier to tuck the M slightly under the flesh at the base of the thumb, kind of like a trigger, to flick M down. Not sure if this is 'legal' but it worked for me to get the rolling action going.
Note: I cut the tendons in my middle and little finger when I put a bottle though my hand many years ago, so this is probably why I can't move A in tandem with M very easily.
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Put me on Abanico suicide watch!! (in reply to turnermoran)
It's all in the wrist. One pattern helped me was doing Sevillanas F-E using this pattern:
1)P down golpe &)P up, am down, 2)P down (&ah2 fast gallop) &)P up accent 3)i down &)i up (set P on bass string to repeat)
Each of the 6 lines above is the 8th note value, it's a 3/4 rhythm you make. The &ah2 gallop is the Abanico pattern that you develop fast and loud with practice repeating the pattern so much. After you get this pattern you can eliminate that space between 2-& where P comes up again, to make a proper triplet group that repeats.
RE: Put me on Abanico suicide watch!! (in reply to turnermoran)
I think it just takes time and maybe some of us are more gifted at it than others. I played rumba for many years before taking on flamenco and even attempting the technique. I do remember it was awkward at first but after a while it felt more natural than the rumba risquéado, so much so I stopped using the thumb/middle finger rumba rasqueado and now I play rumba and use the the rasqeado en abanico
I do still find picado challenging and believe the trouble is not mental but physical. Like Andy stated I think it has to do with my middle finger being too much longer than my index and catching on the strings....slowing my picado down. Recently I started experimenting and playing picado with I and A fingers and picado flows smoother and faster with less effort....may not be considered the norm. But as Juan Serrano once said to me "who's to say my way is not the right way and yours the wrong way" In the end I think we all have to play the way that best works for us individually
RE: Put me on Abanico suicide watch!! (in reply to Ricardo)
Ricardo - thanks for the suggestions. though i'm a bit confused..
1)P down golpe &)P up, am down,
Having said that each line is an eight note in duration, does the second line represent 2 sixteenths, since there are 2 movements?
2)P down (&ah2 fast gallop)
Not following this. (Is what's in the parenthesis the culmination? as in "ONE and-a TWO", articulated by P down (with *a* golpe I assume), followed by P up, am down, and landing on P down, which is your 3rd line (2nd quarter note)..
I have questions about what's after.. but it's contingent on clarification of the first part. Thanks
Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA
RE: Put me on Abanico suicide watch!! (in reply to turnermoran)
While practicing this and watching other people play it I came up the following observation / question. As with most flamenco techniques and playing it slow I am flicking my thumb and fingers, however when trying to play it faster the flicking results in tension in the hand making it difficult. Is this a case where you need to loosen up and let your fingers flop around a bit since the action is coming from the wrist?
_____________________________
Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
Posts: 41
Joined: Apr. 3 2016
From: Iraq, Living in North Carolina
RE: Put me on Abanico suicide watch!! (in reply to Cervantes)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cervantes
While practicing this and watching other people play it I came up the following observation / question. As with most flamenco techniques and playing it slow I am flicking my thumb and fingers, however when trying to play it faster the flicking results in tension in the hand making it difficult. Is this a case where you need to loosen up and let your fingers flop around a bit since the action is coming from the wrist?
From what I've experienced while learning it (although I'm nowhere near perfecting it yet) I figured that the faster you go the more relaxed you are supposed to be but the only way to get to that state of mind is by programing your brain and your muscles memory and this only happens by religiously doing all the steps super slow over a long period of time.. The way it worked for me is after endless frustration of not getting the hang of it I decided to sit down and simply just do it super slow on the metronome for two hours nonstop. By the end of the first hour I noticed my hand and wrist started moving in a fan-like pattern and it happened subconsciously without me forcing that movement pattern (which is the beauty of doing things super slow because it gives your muscles enough time to adjust and program itself to the most efficient way of achieving the desired action).. Next I noticed that I started doing it in fast triplets separated from each other but each triplet was satisfyingly fast and consistent and it gave that galloping rhythm however I resisted the temptation and I didn't fall for the trick and continued to do it super slow and didn't increase the speed until I was able to do it continuously by the end of the 2nd hour.. Technically you have to have a very relaxed hand, wrist, forearm, arm, shoulder to the extent that you can virtually do it so fast nonstop for as long as you want without feeling any tension or fatigue which I know sounds more like sci-fi to you but if you do it super slow for long period of time you will program your brain and muscles to perform this way and you will be telling yourself how come I wasn't getting it before because it makes sense to be more relaxed while doing it fast...
There is a technique with the Oud pick called "firdash" which is basically very fast and continuous alternation of the pick on one string (in flamenco it's mimicked sometimes by alternating with the thumb up and down using the back of the thumb nail) so when I first tried to learn firdash on the oud it was a very similar experience as I also noticed that the faster I tried to alternate the pick the more tense my muscles became but when I slowed it down to a sluggish boring buzzkiller speed and did it over and over again at that speed I developed the necessary muscle memory to increase the speed of the alternation without increasing the tension in the muscles until you reach a point when you can just keep alternating nonstop for as long as you want without feeling any fatigue as if you were not using these muscles.
Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA
RE: Put me on Abanico suicide watch!! (in reply to turnermoran)
This looks interesting but no comprendo espanol. I tried translating the closed captions but it didn't come out well. Maybe somebody who speaks Spanish can summarize the main points.
_____________________________
Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
RE: Put me on Abanico suicide watch!! (in reply to Cervantes)
quote:
Maybe somebody who speaks Spanish can summarize the main points.
- doesn't matter if you use a, i or ai, basically the same. with x, doesn't sound as strong. - the last thumb up movement shouldn't sound louder than the rest. -smaller movement= more speed. when doing it slow, it's hard to not move the fingers but when you play fast the fingers don't really move, all from the wrist - the last half of the vid is just an exercice using solea chords, trying to focus on getting an even sound throughout the whole abanico and focusing on the thumb up movement as your reference point to know where the beat is.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: Put me on Abanico suicide watch!! (in reply to Cervantes)
This video of Tino is helpful, but ultimately, he's more using the P-a-i (in the end at least). And while he sounds awesome, it's not quite what I'm struggling with.
But what I'm really in pursuit of is the 'machine gun' marote abanico, like what I see so much a part of the playing of Tomatito, Antonio Rey, Vicente and many many others:
(at 0:50 for example)
Obviously, we can't all sound like Tomatito, but so many guys are using the technique, and it looks the same player to player, and I don't see or hear Tino using it so effectively.
It looks like: forearm is steady, but rotates at the wrist. The fingers form the 'heavy metal salute', and the thumb appears to saw through the strings at warp speed.
Reading other threads, I see a discussion of the thumb nail tip just 'kissing the strings like a butterfly'. Which makes sense I guess.
What I wonder about though, is that it's not a part of every players bag of tricks. As mentioned, I seldom if ever see Paco use it. Same with Diego del Morao.
I wonder if it's a technique that wasn't as natural for them, or one that intentionally wasn't developed, or some other reason. Obviously, Paco's music didn't suffer for lack of it. So it's not like it's a requirement, but it's pretty handy to have..
RE: Put me on Abanico suicide watch!! (in reply to turnermoran)
Fwiw I found practising as softly/quietly as possible was what got me over the block I experienced with abanico. When I tried playing it softly, I realised I was holding tension between my upper arm and chest which was running down my arm and affecting the wrist flick. Once I fully relaxed and got it going softly, it was then a case of trying to stay that way as I slowly ramped up the force/volume.
RE: Put me on Abanico suicide watch!! (in reply to turnermoran)
quote:
This video of Tino is helpful, but ultimately, he's more using the P-a-i (in the end at least). And while he sounds awesome, it's not quite what I'm struggling with.
True. I did think the part where he says he has to move or flick his fingers some if he plays it too slow was important, i.e. it's one of those techniques where practicing too slow may not help all that much/be counterproductive.
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Put me on Abanico suicide watch!! (in reply to turnermoran)
quote:
What I wonder about though, is that it's not a part of every players bag of tricks. As mentioned, I seldom if ever see Paco use it. Same with Diego del Morao.
At 6:00
At 2:58 you can see a good version to practice where beat 6 has the bass plus an up stroke, so the pattern is off beat: Am-p/p up-am-p/p-am-p/P up...rhythm is &-ah-8&ah-9&ah-10.
For me the techniques of rasgueado will be personal, but generally it's about color (chord voicing) and dynamics (volume relative to the rest of what is being played) which rasgueado is chosen ultimately. Marote triplet used to be my go to rasgueado for everything and I have sort of grown out of it...only on occasion do I use it for guitar solos stuff and for dance I have decreased it's usage 50% or so...if for no other reason than I like to save it up for super fast and loud parts to distinguish from the wall of the "noise" going on.
That rhythm Tomatito does above I first notice (historically) on Almoraima, the signature being that up stroke after count 6 that sets up an off beat triplet. PDL most likely does it a-i/p-a-i/p-a-i/P....I often thought he was going as Tomatito above however due to the robust sound on the recording. But he soon adapted instead this faster pattern for bulerias remates, as can be seen in videos late 70s: ima down-p up/a-i-p-a/i-p-a-i/P up. That rhythm is &ah 8e&ah 9e&ah 10. I think he always just prefered the dynamics he can have with that vs Marote style. He can also be seen doing Cepero style eami,iami,iami,i. On 7-10 closings.
Vicente adapted what Paco was doing with the 4 note grouping triplets to the Marote. I believe his pattern was: P up-am/p down p up am p down/p-am-p-p/am...same rhythm as above. I sounds a bit more robust than PDL's version I admit.
I gave you a Sevillanas rhythm to start learning it, here is the next step, after getting the basic triplet and off beat start triplet as Tomatito vid above:
At 2:54 he does p-am-p-p/am-p-p-am/P down...that's 1e&ah 2e&ah 3. So you can see at the slow tempo how the triplet can be used to do 4 rhythms any which way you need it. Speed is just a matter of the wrist moving at the right speed once you can do these more basic patterns.
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