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Another observation is that classic cante gitano, even when accompanied by guitar, does not usually have the oppressively square metronome compás that a lot people consider gospel.

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Another observation is that classic cante gitano, even when accompanied by guitar, does not usually have the oppressively square metronome compás that a lot people consider gospel.

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I suspect a lot of people have had a similar experience as it seems to be a rather widespread "problem" in how flamenco is taught.

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I think the example I put of Borrico shows some of that. Correct me if I am wrong, but Borrico seems to come in and out of beginning lines in places that are not square.

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Tio Borrico was known for not letting the guitar decide much. Basically, what he often does is to enter on 10 instead of 1. Remember that many of these guys learned the letras while working in the fields and there was no guitar. They were hired to work in the fields during the season and the rest of the year they hang out and "worked" in the bars

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When I started learning flamenco guitar, I went to different people, teachers, schools, etc. I realized most of the teaching, and I think this is still the case today, was focused on falsetas. We use to call it the "falseta wall", this huge amount of falsetas that a teacher would throw at you and you'd just have to find a way to climb over it. You could learn them all but still not know how to piece them together nor have the slightest inkling of how to accompany. I suspect a lot of people have had a similar experience as it seems to be a rather widespread "problem" in how flamenco is taught.

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When we talk about square compas it's not so much the regularity of the beats timing, more about singing across the compas e.g. entering in non typical places, phrasing that isn't so adherent to 3 6 8 10 12 etc.. Basically this means allowing a more free and emotional expression. Of course personal taste dictates when this is done well or not and so countless discussions and different opinions ensue.

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ORIGINAL: BAFF

I would like to participate in this discussion about cante por soleá. I haven't posted in this forum for years but I do still sing a bit of soleá from time to time.

The video estebanana posted with Terremoto and Manuel Morao is a classic of Jerez style soleá where they are actually doing what folks outside of Jerez would probably call "soleá por bulerías" and which in Jerez is sometimes called "bulerías pa' escuchar."

Another observation is that classic cante gitano, even when accompanied by guitar, does not usually have the oppressively square metronome compás that a lot people consider gospel.

If I have time, I'll post the lyrics later.

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ORIGINAL: Leñador

How about if you're learning to actually sing cante? Seems like it'd be best to really stay on compas till you know what your doing.....

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My advice to singer students, assuming you are serious about it and not just messing around, is to pick a letra you like, identify it as per Norman's site,

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ORIGINAL: Leñador

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My advice to singer students, assuming you are serious about it and not just messing around, is to pick a letra you like, identify it as per Norman's site,

Is that because those are like.......I guess archetypes would be the word......???

I'm assuming there would be specific letras from specific cantaores that you wouldn't want to copy as a new student because it's kind of........too unique, breaks too many "rules" and without deeper understanding of why you wouldn't want to make that your "first solea" let's say??

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ORIGINAL: Ricardo
2. Do you sound authentic? If not, what's the problem? What would you need to change? Accent? Vocal quality? Key? Expression?
Ricardo

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ORIGINAL: Ricardo

My point about accent is more about the detail of copying the original than what might be more correct.

For example if you copy Camaron "era morenit-ay pro-bay"... But change it to "era morenita y pobre", then you are probably also missing musical details that are tied to that.

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How about if you're learning to actually sing cante? Seems like it'd be best to really stay on compas till you know what your doing.....

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So keep on being brave and upload your singing here. We need you.
Also when you have some letras and if you have the chance, go to Spain and try to find a peña with a relaxed atmosphere.
The peña I was member of in Huelva, (La peña el higueral) some of the amateur singers got together saturday afternoon. They would love to hear you sing and would be very helpfull. So helpfull that they would all talk and discuss very loudly and fill you with Fino, Rioja, chorizo y queso, so that you would get all dizzy and forget what you had learnt.

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This thread is becoming denser and denser with good nuggets of information. I think this is important because I see talk groups becoming decadent and unfocused after many years, our thrill of the internet is over. We can go back to things we learned about a long time ago and see new things in them and for the pros to jump in an add guidance and deeper understanding of the mechanics of this subject is great.