Oud wihtout sound hole

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Haithamflamenco

Posts: 927
Joined: Mar. 6 2007
From: Bahrain

Oud wihtout sound hole

Dear All,

4 month ago a professional Oud player contact me regarding his new design about an Oud he is working on with a help of Oud building workshop here in Bahrain.

His idea is to build Oud without sound holes on the top and some sound ports on the sides, the oud is already built and he is experimenting where to open the side sound port.

First test was to open a sound port of the bottom of the oud then he closes it and open two on both sides of the oud.
He told me its sounds better now but still not load as he wish, he is asking me to experiment in the bracing system something like classical or flamenco fan bracing system instead of the normal vertical harmonic bares used in the oud.

So the question is, what do you think about using a fan bracing system in the oud? And how to make this oud sounds better with no sound holes on the top!

haitham

the oud concept

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Bahrain is my country and Andalucia is my dream

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2016 5:41:49

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Oud wihtout sound hole (in reply to Haithamflamenco)

You know there are Oud forums ... like
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/

where they make n build them ...i, myself, would ask there

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2016 20:49:07

Haithamflamenco

Posts: 927
Joined: Mar. 6 2007
From: Bahrain

RE: Oud wihtout sound hole (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

You know there are Oud forums ... like http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/ where they make n build them ...i, myself, would ask there

ok great, thank you,

I ask in this forum becuse I grow up here

and I ask about classical fan bracing

thank you

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Bahrain is my country and Andalucia is my dream

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2016 5:06:18

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Oud wihtout sound hole (in reply to Haithamflamenco)

I tried to brace and oud with fan braces behind the bridge and regular lateral bars above the bridge. It seemed like a good idea,but not sure if it made the oud louder. I've retopped a few ouds and did those with traditional braces. Did not seem to make much difference with volume.

Sound ports don't automatically mean more volume. if it were me and I were trying to make a loud oud I would talk to John Shelton about his double shell bodied guitars and think about that route. Ask John about it.
Ouds and guitars are significantly different, but maybe the double shell idea might be adapted to the oud. It is worth a try.

The Munir Basheer style oud with the trapeze bridge changes the oud sound a lot. I expect that fan braces will change the sound also and probably not in a good way. The oud bridge works differently from guitar bridge and you can cancel out how it moves with the wrong braces. The main problem with fan braces is that they might not be strong enough to take the tension which pulls the oud top into a depression in front of the bridge. You know what I mean? The fans might have to be deep and thin to take the tension and that might cancel out some sound. Low guitar fanbraces tend to follow the top if it depresses due to tension. The lateral brace under the soundhole has to take the tension also. The other idea you have to solve with fan braces is how the braces engage the outer rim of the oud, the traditional oud braces work because they are precision fitted to the rim. How would you make the top rim connection? That would be my question and will the fans be light weight enough, but still be strong. maybe carbon fibre fan braces?

Two other guitar bracing systems I would investigate before fan braces are lattice braced tops, balsa sticks with carbon fibre reinforcement, and cross over brace system like Greg Byers has used. Diamond shaped lattice with parabolic shaped fan braces. I'm pretty sure someone has already experimented with the lattice brace balsa /carbon fibre because this works very well with paper thin tops. Oud tops are generally between 1.5 mm to 2.2 or .3 mm- Older building styles have had them very thin. Thin and stiff generally means loud, but on a guitar if the top it too thin is can sound how we say in English "tinny" like hitting a tin can. But the oud is different and designed to work with a very thin top.

If you ask at Mikes Oud Forum see if any one has built ouds with lattice pattern balsa ans carbon fibre, I bet there is someone. You can also find Richard Handkey on Mikes Ouds, he goes by the name Dr. Oud. He knows a lot. Good guy.

One more thing, that fingerboard extension all the way to the bridge? I doubt that is helping at all. Probably making it sound not as good as it should. Non essential baggage encumbering the top. Try a small sound hole on the top, maybe like 60mm wide and open a 30mm wide sound port near the neck block.

I see other potential problems now too. Mostly that the oud is over built and over finished. Those things detract from sound quality and volume.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2016 7:42:45

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Oud wihtout sound hole (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Sound ports don't automatically mean more volume. if it were me and I were trying to make a loud oud I would talk to John Shelton about his double shell bodied guitars and think about that route. Ask John about it.
Ouds and guitars are significantly different, but maybe the double shell idea might be adapted to the oud. It is worth a try.

I doubt adding a shell would make a difference in volume. The shell seems to improve projection and adds a different character to the voice of the guitar.

Adding a shell to an Oud would certainly be an interesting building challenge but certainly could be done.

I concur with Stephen about the extended fingerboard.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2016 17:24:09

Haithamflamenco

Posts: 927
Joined: Mar. 6 2007
From: Bahrain

RE: Oud wihtout sound hole (in reply to Haithamflamenco)

Dear Stephen and John,

thank you so much for your reposts , lots of help, lots of ideas and info,

one interesting guitar I found months ago from a French builder called Bastien Burlot,

he is building his own design guitar without a sound hole

http://www.classicguitar.com/c-10Burlot.html