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Is Flamenco still Flamenco?
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brad
Posts: 34
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
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 Is Flamenco still Flamenco?
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Hi guys, I have a thought that has been going around in my head after listening some modern flamenco and like to share it with you.
People, things, ideas, everything must change in order to improve, evolve, etc
Now applying that to flamenco music. I think that flamenco has won a lot with its changes in the last 10-20 years with the adding of new chords, harmonies and influences from jazz and others sources, but I think the price that has paid for all that, is that nowadays Flamenco has lost its character, its power and its particularity, to me now is very difficult to distinguish one palo from other, they all sound almost the same
If you listen a bulerias from 40 years ago and then a modern bulerias, musically and technically the improvement is amazing but the soul the essence it's not the same, something is missing. There should be a balance in all these fields. Like Paco said once in an interview from the 70's:
La fuerza de la guitarra flamenca es su caracter, sin él ya no es nada.
The power of flamenco guitar is its character, without it would be nothing
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Date Dec. 27 2015 21:27:21
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: Is Flamenco still Flamenco? (in reply to tri7/5)
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Well ,it doesn't have to be 2/5/1 to be jazz , except the good old standards ...most of which are considered old tunes any way ...modal jazz .. all kinds exist ...
many flamenco palos have 5 / 1 in it any way ... almost there ...
I dont think that route will get you anywhere in this question ...
If you really want to know if flamenco is still flamenco you will have to define what flamenco is , in order to see if modern additives have changed it sufficiently to be not flamenco ...
A starting point may be the typical answer as to what flamenco is , it could be be the standard ...
............
A style of Spanish music, played especially on the guitar and accompanied by singing and dancing.
a style of spirited, rhythmical dance performance
an artform and genre of music and dance native to the southern Spanish regions of Andalusia, Extremadura and Murcia. It includes cante, toque.
....
If you take this , and this alone as the definition , then you will find a lot of things fall out side of flamenco ...perhaps even many of Pacos works themselves ..
However, flamenco itself must be an art-form if anything , and therefore all encompassing . So , like any artform it can only be defined in that one day or moment in time , as it evolves so will the rules that govern it, and so evolve as time passes ...
Because its constantly being re-invented by people .. who themselves are ever changing and non-static .
It would have to involve creative self expression as one of its fundamental pillars,
It cannot , as art, remain static ..one of the more recent changes it is now encountering is that what is happening right here ..right now , on this site ..
foroflamenco itself is evidence of this genre becoming a cross cultural artform . .. so many cultures in the world , and so many add a small bit in from time to time ...
if you went far enough back in time ..some long gone singers would say what there is today is not flamenco ...
in fact I think it strange that Brad ended his post with the phrase
''La fuerza de la guitarra flamenca es su caracter, sin él ya no es nada. ''
While I get it .. I also consider the past when flamenco was the voice , the song , its story ,, and the accopanyment ...tapping a cane on the ground .. clapping , knuckles on a table ..... no guitar ....its evolved already
_____________________________
Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Dec. 28 2015 20:26:05
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Is Flamenco still Flamenco? (in reply to El Kiko)
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quote:
in fact I think it strange that Brad ended his post with the phrase ''La fuerza de la guitarra flamenca es su caracter, sin él ya no es nada. ''
While I get it .. I also consider the past when flamenco was the voice , the song , its story ,, and the accopanyment ...tapping a cane on the ground .. clapping , knuckles on a table ..... no guitar ....its evolved already
You nailed the answer to his question with your final lines, quoted above. On target!
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Dec. 29 2015 13:07:09
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Is Flamenco still Flamenco? (in reply to Dudnote)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dudnote
Some of this has been discussed before here
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=269640&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1
In that thread Ricardo listed 6 modern innovations
quote:
1. synchopation
2. dynamics and phrasing.
3. from brazil styles, certain voicings of ii-V-I moves coupled with 1 and 2 above.
4. Modulation away from and back to tonic using secondary dominants.
5. From jazz minor third modulations and melodic minor mode usage.
6. also from Jazz the occasional chart/improvisational structure concept in place of falsetas.
It would be great to have some examples of 3,4,5 & 6, cause without examples these are just abstract concepts with little practical value (IMO).
Seems no one mentioned salsa so far, but there are several examples of salsa stuff being mixed into flamenco. AFAIK Camaron was the first to do that.
3. Gm11-C7b5/Gb-F....this type of move became super common at some point. In place of the "cambio" of por medio key that is, but found and almost any palo. I show a version in the Paco tutorial buleria I did last year of the falseta from "punta del faro".
4. Soniquete from Zyrab, the opening falseta por buleria...goes from C# Phrygian to E major (ii-V-I), then to C major (ii-V-I), then E Phrygian (vii-II7-I), Am (N2-i), E Phrygian (II+-I), back to C# Phrygian (II-I)...
5. Also from Zyrab the buleria compadres, the last falseta before the fandango exit, The same line line in A Phrygian is transposed up to C Phrygian, then back to A phrygian. This brief but effective idea caught on and there might be tons of examples...off hand Tomatito Chicuelo, Vicente, Gerardo etc all used it.
6. MOst Rumbas since Entre dos Aguas pretty much...in flamenco 12 PALOS Paco used this in Plaza Alta ending, Chiquito, Nuñez used for Gallo Azul ending, Solea por buleria in Eb tuning the begining.
Ricardo
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Dec. 30 2015 22:00:22
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Is Flamenco still Flamenco? (in reply to Dudnote)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dudnote
Thanks Ricardo
What is an N2 chord? If I google it the only hits I get are in books.
Neapolitan II chord...used by Italian classical composers, basically the tritone sub for the dominant to tonic resolution in Minor keys. Normally in Am, you have E7-Am...the N2 takes the place of the V7 so you would have Bb-Am instead. That is what Paco was doing with his falseta. It can also be used as a way to evoke the natural Phrygian mode (A,Bb,C,D,E,F,G), a rather unresolved sound in flamenco.
quote:
But there are also many flamenco artists doing what I call "soft flamenco", in wich everything is smooth...very smooth.
Yes, this falls directly under what I was describing as the DYNAMICS of the music that have changed. Smooth or soft or suave playing allows for hard driving rasgueados to become extremely intense, relatively speaking. While it was a general trend it is very noticeable with Vicente Amigo and later with other players for cante. I remember Josele playing for Cigala was all the rage at one time and he was playing so darn soft deliberately...too much drama for me too. It transferred into the "pop" flamenco world naturally. It reminds much of bossa nova with the quiet whispering sexy female voice. For me it only works in limited situations where the hard rasgueados are used effectively with it. An example I actual did like was Vicente Solea with Jose Merce.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Dec. 31 2015 17:40:26
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