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RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars?   You are logged in as Guest
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Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to Erik van Goch) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch

I don't think age is the problem. The classical Ramirez we own is 50 years old and don't seem to have problems at all. As far as i can judge the flamenco one is unchanged since we bought it. It's neck is still as straight as straight can be but as soon as one tunes up to normal tuning the neck bends forwards a little bid (ore more likely the angle of the neck towards the guitar alters). Fortunately i don't feel the need to do so, in fact i haven't used a tuning fork myself during the past 15 years and my guitars are tuned to whatever sounds/feels right and/or fits the recording i'm ear playing. Most of the time that will be pretty close to E.


Did you try lighter tension string set?

quote:


Antonio Marin Montero (1971, Mariana Pineda), top cedar, back and side cypress, ebony tuning pegs, 660 mm scale: 1160 g.


18 or 19 frets?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2013 14:12:05
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to C. Vega) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: C. Vega

The title is A Collection of Fine Spanish Guitars from Torres to the Present by Sheldon Urlik. 157 pages. Commerce CA, Sunny Knoll Publishing, 1997.

Interesting book. It also contains a few guitars by non-Spanish makers like Hauser, Bouchet, etc. There are some minor factual errors as expected in a book like this and the photography could be better but it's still a nice reference to have. Hardcover.
GSI lists it as being in stock. $119.95.


Well I got the second edition this Christmas...214 pages, 82 guitars, comes with 3 CD's. The third CD is flamenco guitars played by Richard Brune. He does an impressive job, quite enjoyable sounds though he plays pretty old school. The "surprise" guitar for me was the Jose Ramirez II example...the book gives a slightly negative review, excusing the low end model as solely included to represent that luthier, but the sound Brune gets out of it is exquisite IMO. Detailed chart in the back shows top thicknesses for 15 parts of every soundboard! A great read....only bummer is about 6 guitars from the collection were not recorded. I would have prefered that the flamencos were organized separately (21 or so examples) from the classicals. As it stands the guitars are organized by date only.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2015 17:24:10
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to Ricardo) 
As its been said here 100 times, Thickness of the soundboard is not really anything you can use for much.
Every piece of wood is different. Soundboards from the same tree normally have some kind of consistancy, but if they are from different parts of the tree, far away from each other, they may start getting different.
Cedar is in general more consistant than Spruce.

The "correct" final thickness of a spruce soundboard can vary up to 25% or even more, depending on the properties of the wood and the thicker or the thinner is not necessarily the best. Weight and stiffness are IMHO at least equally important and in most cases more important factors. And remember we talk about cross-grain AND along-grain stiffness.

So try not to make any definite conclusions about soundboard thickness and quality based on what is written in a book. (never mind the author)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2015 8:04:17
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

Cedar is in general more consistant than Spruce.


Anders,

Are you referring to cedar being more consistent from within the same tree, OR cedar is generally more consistent as a species and across many trees?

Just curious to hear your thoughts

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2015 15:48:55
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to Ricardo) 
In general i find that Western Red Cedar is more consistant than spruce. A lot more actually and its one of the advantages of that soundboard material because you dont have to adjust so much to the properties of the material you are working with.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2015 20:51:00
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

As its been said here 100 times, Thickness of the soundboard is not really anything you can use for much.
Every piece of wood is different. Soundboards from the same tree normally have some kind of consistancy, but if they are from different parts of the tree, far away from each other, they may start getting different.
Cedar is in general more consistant than Spruce.

The "correct" final thickness of a spruce soundboard can vary up to 25% or even more, depending on the properties of the wood and the thicker or the thinner is not necessarily the best. Weight and stiffness are IMHO at least equally important and in most cases more important factors. And remember we talk about cross-grain AND along-grain stiffness.

So try not to make any definite conclusions about soundboard thickness and quality based on what is written in a book. (never mind the author)


I found it interesting, of course I know the numbers don't really show a normal trend of anything. At a glance, even the detailed drawing of brace patterns, coupled with recordings, don't show a trend. Best examples are the quite varied Santos Hernandez patterns that all sound the same....and the identical pattern of the two Fleta guitars that end up sounding completely different. Now I have read the book more I have to say the opinions of the author regarding certain makers as being "inferior" to older builders or what ever migh lack sound wise of guitar X, are pretty pointless. I guess I just like the pictures and the sound.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 31 2015 20:03:25
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to Ricardo) 
I ordered a copy of the new edition and look forward for the postman to knock at my door as I loved the first edition and I believe it is an amazing book.
I don't agree with the opinion of Anders in this case even though he makes a good point.
The same could be said of many plans...anyway, better to have these kind of infos than not.
This book is definitely a catalog of a great collection of guitars and not a guitar making manual.
From a catalog you expect infos, measures and pictures and here you can find them all plus the recordings: what else would you expect more?

The author likes more the old style flamenco guitars: he doesn't seem to appreciate too much the Condes
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 1 2016 0:48:40
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

I don't agree with the opinion of Anders in this case even though he makes a good point.


What is it you dont agree with? :)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 2 2016 7:35:02
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Hi,
If I'm not wrong, You were saying that the thickness measures are good for nothing as there are too many variables in the wood (weight/ Module of Young in the 2 axes).
I agree that these infos are not enough to let you make a copy of the guitar (in case you wanted) but I think that they are anyway useful (even more to understand a little more the bracing) and they make it a desiderable catalog.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 2 2016 8:38:24
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to Ricardo) 
To me it says close to nothing.
Weight and 2 axis stiffness are telling me a lot more.
You can take 2 spruce soundboards that are both top quality, final thickness them to the same weight/stiffness parameters and 1 might be 2.0mm and another 2.4 or more mm. And the thinner or the thicker one is not better than the other

European Spruce varies enormously depending on where it grew. Even within a short distance. The Italian Alpine spruce is in general lighter than German spruce (distance around 100km) and within a small country like Switzerland you can see a huge difference between the spruce from Jura and the spruce from Bergün. The first is more like german Spruce and the latter more like German spruce, but they both have their little personalities.

To this you can add that 2 trees growing close together will produce different types of wood.

And one more. 2 evenly good builders may prefer different types of spruce.

So thats why I consider thickness to be a number and not much more.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 2 2016 10:45:44
 
Stephen Eden

 

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to Ricardo) 
For a first time builder all of the numbers are important. You have no knowledge or intuition to draw from. Until you have more experience following numbers can be a great help.

They are less important for a pro, however I feel I can still draw ideas on what the builder was trying to do by varying thickness in certain places of the board.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 2 2016 11:45:46
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to Ricardo) 
of course, the intentional differences give you a landscape picture of the soundboard.

newbies are best off comparing their soundboard to other, more experienced builders soundboards. thats what i did the first years I built plus i had the luck to work a place where i could touch and flex both raw and ready-to-build-soundboards.
The brain is like computer where everything is stored. The only difficult thing is to find it again after some time.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 2 2016 15:27:21
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to britguy) 
I followed the advice of an earlier poster and went to a local drug dealer to use his scales. My '67 Ramirez cedar/cypress blanca came in at 2786 grams. He swore his scale was accurate.

Not! On my kitchen scale the Ramirez is 1310 grams. The '82 Arcangel Fernandez spruce/cypress is 1344 grams.

Richard Brune commented on the how thin the top of the Arcangel is, but I haven't measured it.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 2 2016 18:45:31
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Hi,
Maybe the scale was working in pounds and as a consequence the right weight of your guitar would be 1263 grams.
I took some measurements of an Arcangel guitar and also of a more recent Manuel Caceres (an exact replica) and both the tops were quite standard (around 2.3 mm).
What I found unusual was the way to dome the top.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2016 11:18:21
 
GFM

 

Posts: 6
Joined: Dec. 21 2015
 

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Hi everybody,

I have taking weights in 5 new flamenco guitars with different kinds of scales and wood.

The results are the following:

José González López, German spruce / Indian rosewood (650 mm): 1530 g.
José Romero, German spruce / Cypress (660 mm): 1487 g.
José Antonio Villalba Bernal, Cedar / Maple (650 mm): 1519 g.
José Antonio Lagunar, German spruce / Cypress (660 mm): 1459 g.
José Antonio Lagunar, German spruce / Madagascar rosewood (660 mm): 1648 g.

In conclusion, there are small differences on the weight average of theese guitars. The guitars made of cypress are lighter in this example.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2016 18:15:41
 
fishguy

 

Posts: 2
Joined: Jan. 21 2016
 

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to britguy) 
Volume two of the Urlik book is now available at $149.95 from sunnyknollpublishing.com,
with:

Three audio CDs for listening to the collection as played by virtuoso players.
Soundboard thicknesses data tables.
Bridge dimensions tables.
Woods and materials data tables.
Over 50 more pages than the 1st edition - including 16 new guitars (listed at website).

List Foroflamenco.com in the "how did you hear about us" box at checkout
- Mr. Urlik is trying to track where sales are coming from.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 21 2016 14:34:47
 
mmmenk

 

Posts: 54
Joined: Dec. 26 2015
 

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
I agree with anders about wood selection.
Good wood is where you find it. You can not expect to place an order and get what you really want. The so called tonewood is graded by experts that spend all day looking at wood coming off of a saw blade, and make snap judgements based on multiple criteria, and it is all in a book of grading standards. The people who do this kind of work are professional and do a very good job.
Sometimes you can find a maverick lumber jack who will cut a tree and split the log portions and resaw specifically for instruments, that is the cream of the crop.
And even the best cut and cured and milled and worked into an instrument may not sing as well as we hope. Every so often we get lucky and get a Mozart.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 23 2016 9:20:30
 
mmmenk

 

Posts: 54
Joined: Dec. 26 2015
 

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to mmmenk) 
if we leave out rosewood guitars, and focus on blancas, and limit them to pegs, then you are closing in on an exclusive club, and what I believe to be the true flamenco guitar. Do we want to go there?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 23 2016 9:32:19
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to mmmenk) 
Michael,

I think Fleta marked it quite well when he learned how to build with off set quartered top wood.

The point to guitars that have propio sello is to know how to manage top differences.

I think all that has been said here is informative and basically good food for thought but the bottom line is always going to be how the builder manages his craft.

To be frank, I can always used a fairly medium stiff top and work it fairly thin to produce volume and clarity.

But then certain designs require different thinness graduation. I personally feel that working with a thin top, and making it sing, is a technique that requires mature skills, or I should say that it took me a long time to learn it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2016 17:29:11
 
mmmenk

 

Posts: 54
Joined: Dec. 26 2015
 

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to Tom Blackshear) 
Tom, you are very wise and like a good chef, you can make a gourmet meal out of the catch of the day.
I agree, when you get lemons, make lemonade.
While we can afford to be fussy, look for the best, but always serve a good meal.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2016 7:23:06
 
tim522

 

Posts: 10
Joined: Nov. 10 2015
 

RE: Average weights of flamenco guitars? (in reply to Ricardo) 
my '74 Gerundino is just over a Kg. super light!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2016 19:52:16
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