RE: Building a 2A on spec

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Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Great build and good sound. I'm sure it will find it's lucky owner in good time.

My thoughts on the 2a label is that every maker has there own ideas of what a 2a should be. Bee it lower decors, lesser wood quality, made by someone else under supervision or just doesn't meet the standards of the maker so it gets a lesser label. There's probably more variation as well.

The issue comes when someone looking for a 'budget' hand made guitar comes across a 2a and there idea of what a 2a is doesn't fit your idea of 2a is and ignores it because they think 2a's aren't made with as good woods or what ever.

I chose not to go down the 2a route. My student guitars have a model name. In which case the prospective client are forced to ask what it is. Giving me the chance to explain my intentions and give more information about the guitar.

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Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 3 2015 9:43:58

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

The issue comes when someone looking for a 'budget' hand made guitar comes across a 2a and there idea of what a 2a is doesn't fit your idea of 2a is and ignores it because they think 2a's aren't made with as good woods or what ever.

Stephen, I see your point here and I like your way of going about it. I actually don't write "2a" or any type of model number on my labels, so to someone looking at the guitar second hand it might as well be a primera (besides some little clues), which I think is fine because I don't use inferior woods.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 3 2015 23:17:51

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

I actually don't write "2a" or any type of model number on my labels

The name of the maker
who has a reputation for honesty
and a reputation for making good flamenco guitars.
A signature that says (and means) “I made this”
A date.

What more could we want?

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 4 2015 15:01:29

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Exactly, what more could you want?

There are quite a few things you should take into consideration when offering something that can be see to be as good as your top model but cheaper. Raising the question of why spend the extra? Even a signature is worth something!

A suggestion might be to make sure you make the difference very obvious. Keeping your 1a special for a reason and worth extra. I don't see many if any differences between the two (given how varied your work is).

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Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 4 2015 16:19:34

nhills

Posts: 230
Joined: Jul. 13 2003
From: West Des Moines, IA USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to RobJe)

I have a Manuel de la Chica.
Evidently what he did for his second level was to not sign the label - everything else is the same, including the dated label and the rosette, although there is little purling decoration.
Unfortunately, mine is not signed, but the sound is great!
Norman

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"The duende is God's orgasm." - Antonio Canales

"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." - Santos Hernandez (as translated by R. Brune)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 4 2015 16:49:55

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to nhills)

quote:

Evidently what he did for his second level was to not sign the label

I seem to recall this being the norm for segundas in Spain.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 4 2015 16:55:07

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

I seem to recall this being the norm for segundas in Spain.

This might be true for Manuel de la Chica but sadly it is not something you can rely on in Spain.

My experience is
Signed by the maker - might have made it.
Not signed by the maker - didn't make it.

On a different point I note that José Marín Plazuelo does not date his guitars.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 4 2015 20:53:31

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to RobJe)

I have a 1968 Jose Ramirez III "Modelo Sabicas," i.e., primera (in terrible condition, that I keep as a reference) that has a label signed by Ramirez, but the heel is stamped with the actual maker's initials, JG--possibly Jose Romero Garrido, who is listed in Ramirez's book "Things About The Guitar" as one of his pupils (page 112).

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_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2015 1:29:06

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

Jose Ramirez III "Modelo Sabicas

Here we are getting into the world of myths, legends and dodgy labels!

Isn't this the unofficial Sherry Brenner stick-on Sabicas label - the flamenco equivalent of the classical 'Segovia' model that annoyed Ramirez so much?

The Ramirez signature is just printed on the label. To be fair Jose Ramirez III was pretty open about what the labels signified.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2015 15:22:23

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to RobJe)

I guess the signature is printed on the label. Yes, the Modelo Sabicas part is a smaller, gold stick-on label that was added later. You can barely see it in my photo, above the year and obscuring the address. Ramirez shows photos of such signed labels (minus the stick on) in his book.

What, exactly, did JR say the labels signified?

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2015 15:33:31

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Stephen Eden)

In Spain the signature meant 1st class handmade instrument while no signature meant 2nd class or modelo de estudio.
In Granada it's still like this.
By signing an instrument you declare you are the maker, by avoiding to sign you declare you are not.
In the case of Ramirez both he signed the label and add a stamp to help to identify the real maker.
What Robje probably meant is that later on many companies (Contreras, Bernabe, Kohno etc) having many workers do not grant you that the 1st class guitar is definitely made by the main maker.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2015 16:26:44

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Interesting bit about the signature.
As it looks so well covering the papers pores and so similar in tone and width to the stroke of the handwritten production number, I had been taking the signature for real.

Just took out the Ramirez and eyed the label through a magnifying glass, still without actual clue, but think you must be right about the printing.

Really remarkable how the ink of the fountain pen matches the printed sig.

Ruphus

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2015 20:11:20

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Just compared my pic with Ethan´s above.

The signatures do differ from each other in regard of position on the label as well as in respect of proportions within the signature itself.

You sure that it is about a print?

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2015 20:29:40

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

You sure that it is about a print?

Not I! Thanks for sharing this, Ruphus.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2015 20:49:06

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Stephen Eden)

You´re welcome, Ethan!

Guess graphologists could be concluding from the signature that Jose III was of stable blood circulation (because of the consistency) and of great self-confidence (seeing the eveness with horizontal stroke). From what´s been said, indeed, all of those Josés seem to not have been suffering from inferiourity complexes.

So far from the little that I came to notice from that (not really scientifical) subject.
- The bit about self-confidence and straight horizontals has been proven, though.
It´s even supposed to be working vice versa as well.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2015 21:14:22

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Ruphus)

I think that I was mistaken about the Ramirez signature - my apologies.

I don't think that Jose Ramirez III ever made any pretence that he was actually making the guitars - just keeping a close eye on things.

The Sherry Brenner gold sticker practice has been discussed many times on this forum and others. There were usually two gold stickers on each guitar - one on the main label and the other on the signature part, the latter covering the designation (1a or 2a). Lift up this second label and you find "2a". These were not necessarily bad guitars - just using up some of the cosmetically less desirable wood. The "Segovia" 2a guitars (and possibly the "Sabicas" ones) were only sold in the USA I think.

We are getting away from the main thrust of this thread I suppose. So my view is boldly make, simply and honestly label and let the buyer decide! There are some great guitars shown by makers on this forum.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2015 21:45:27

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to RobJe)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe

I don't think that Jose Ramirez III ever made any pretence that he was actually making the guitars - just keeping a close eye on things.

Just in case of you referring to my last post: With The Ramirez self-confidence I was aiming to relate to them being convinced of production methods and output. Not meaning to imply that they themselves were busy at the benches. (My humble language skills can lead to confusion.)

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2015 1:32:02

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Forgot to post these here: finished pictures and an audio clip. For those wondering, the guitar is currently on hold.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2016 23:07:41

mmmenk

Posts: 54
Joined: Dec. 26 2015

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I believe that this can be a very valid topic for discussion.
The players did make up this stuff. If you offer a 1 a, a 2a, or a signature model, what does it all mean. It is part of the marketing of an artistic product that falls into the hands of the rabble. Perhaps the true genius never leaves a signature? Then what?
Annon.
Probably has composed the best music of all times. Who wrote that.?
Well, after all it was you and me. and we agreed. History does not repeat, it just gets rewritten by the new people on top.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2016 1:49:56

drhildr

Posts: 66
Joined: Feb. 1 2016

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Stephen Eden)

That looks stunning and sounds even better - am I allowed to ask how much that might cost someone?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2016 12:37:33

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Stephen Eden)

I mentioned this guitar when you were asking about a new guitar for yourself. Andy sells these for $2800. He did have it up for sale but it is now sold I believe

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2016 16:13:18

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Andy,

Great post for aspiring guitar builders like myself.
You really have it mastered.
And thanks for your advise on nut making, I have it done but needs a little tweaking.

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Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2016 17:21:39

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Building a 2A on spec (in reply to Stephen Eden)

drhildr, thank you very much! It is sold, but SEden got the price right for another one like it (thanks SEden).

Thank you Cervantes, glad my advice was helpful.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2016 22:07:48