Student Model Revisited

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Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

Student Model Revisited

Hi all,

It has been over a year since I introduced a Student Model flamenco guitar. Although having a great deal of interest only now have I actually been asked to build one! Probably because I am responsable for selling them.

Anyway, I haven't seen a full build thread recently and thought it might be good to put one up but hopefully with a slight difference. I would like to run it as a kind of tutorial with questions and answers. Below is the link to the last thread I made on this guitar. The thread is fairly comprehensive but lacks the detail. If there is anything in that thread you want to know in more detail put it here and I will cover it in this thread. I will be starting at some point next week hopefully so you will have at least a weekend to think of some questions.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=261713&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#261713

I look forward to answering your build questions!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2015 10:10:08

Vince

Posts: 141
Joined: Oct. 21 2012
From: Germany

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

That's sounds very very good.
I will shurely follow your treat.

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http://www.gitarrenbau-held.de/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 5 2015 11:35:05

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Cool, see you next Monday with the finished guitar!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 5 2015 12:24:41

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

I really liked your previous 3D and found it great.
Can you show better how do you set the proper neck angle and how do you work the fingerboard (tapering etc. )
Thanks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 5 2015 12:31:16

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Shall do Echi. I think that I will have to explain that one over 3 or stages of the build.

This one will be a lot slower paced than the last thread as I am going to be building it in the gaps between French polishing 3 classical guitars and taking a week off! I should imagine t wll be done in about 4 weeks time.

Anything in particular you would like to see Vince? It would be nice to know I gave out some valuable information too.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 5 2015 17:10:55

Vince

Posts: 141
Joined: Oct. 21 2012
From: Germany

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

How do you prepare the bindiges and install it. Especially how do you cut the Binding ledge in the heel part on the back.
Howe do you shape the heel and how do you French polish the heel/side area.
Howe do you shape the neck headstock joint.
May there some more questions while reading your posts.

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http://www.gitarrenbau-held.de/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2015 16:56:10

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Hi Vince, the build is happening and I am going to putting it through the mould very soon.
I am just about finished polishing my other guitars so It should be ready soon.

I should be able to answer most of you questions although I have already rough shaped the heel with a double beveled carving knife.

I have also taken other pictures of things I hope others will find interesting.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2015 8:42:01

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Hi Everyone,

Sorry it's taken so long to get back to this thread. This guitar was entirely built in between building other guitars. It has been such a busy time here that I have not had a huge amount of time to upload the pictures and explain them in the manner I wanted to.

Any way, I have now finished the guitar and figured I would use this as an opportunity to up load all of the pictures I have taken to answer your questions and also I have added in a few things I thought didn't get discussed much. So lets start.

The first is just the raw materials I will be using.

The second is shows roughly how I figure out where and how I join the top together. I run a pencil in the grain to track it so to speak, then using a ruler I draw a line of best fit trying to get the grain as parallel as possible. I then cut in the band saw and join them by planing them.

The third shows how I plain the head joint and the forth shows how I clamp the join.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (4)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2015 13:45:08

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

The first picture shows how I fit the centre strip in the back of the guitar. I clamp the veneer in place using my jointing board. Then use a sharp knife to trim it to the exact size needed.

The second shows the rosette about to be glued into the soundboard. What you can't see is on the other side of the rosette is a layer of masking tape. That is the only thing holding it together before gluing it in. Obviously when glued in the masking tape will be on the top and taken off once the glue is set.

The third pic is one of those how do you do it pictures. This is how I clean the excess glue from the bars I am gluing in. A simple piece of wood with an angle cut into one side. I run it along the bar and sound board at an angle. It picks the glue up so I can wipe it off elsewhere. How do you clean the glue from your bars?

The fourth picture shows an easy way to keep order when stacking cedar for the Zoque. I cut them and glue them in order so the zoque has a better chance of keeping a continuous grain line.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (4)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2015 13:56:31

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

The first shows how I use off cut from a previous neck to get the blocks for the zoque in the right place.

The second shows My gluing procedure for gluing the zoque in place.

The third is how I glue the harmonic bars on. One thing to note is that the upper harmonic is flat and forced onto place by clamps because of the strength of the bar. It does not hold the shape of the dish so flattens out after gluing.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (3)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2015 14:05:17

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

This is how I clear the slot for the sides and wedge. I then clean the sides with a sanding stick to make sure they are level so the sides fit perfectly.

The second shows a good quick way of clamping the head into my tuner barrel hole drill thingymejig. This is the same wedge I use for the head slotting jig!

The third shows the reference line for the both the head slotting jig and the tuner barrel hole drill thingmejig. So apart from the center line these are the only two marking I use to set up this stage of the head.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (3)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2015 14:11:51

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

These pictures are especially for Echi.

These show you the stages I use to use to set the correct neck angle. In the first picture you can see my assembly mold. I have taken the picture like this so you can clearly see that I have planed the area the neck will be held to introduce a little bit of forward neck angle.

The second picture shows me marking where the recess should be for the sound board.

The third picture shows the router set up I use to introduce the angle into the recess. The ruler raises one end to set the angle. It's trial and error to begin with but once you have the ruler in the right place mark it and it's always good after that. The fence is set so I can slide the neck side ways and get the cut where I want it to be. Which is a close to the 12th fret position as I dare!

The fourth just shows how I go about setting the height of the router bit.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2015 14:22:57

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

The first is how I hold and use the side profile template. I guess this is just one of things that gets passed down from the person who taught you. There are quite a few ways of doing this from cutting the profile before bending the sides to measure is all out by hand and planing down to the line.

The second is gluing the linings in place. I was lucky enough to find a retiring maker who got these clamps made for him. They are much better than clothes pegs with elastic bands on!

The last two are just a couple of eye candy pics showing the guitar after it has come out of the mould

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2015 14:29:25

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Now the next 20 pictures are for Vince. Showing him how I route and fit the bindings in place. Unfortunately the bindings are very plane on this model so the is no point in showing you how I prepare them as they are just rosewood sticks essentially. I have also hopefully taken such a step by step guide that I won't need to explain them either so I can rest from typing for a bit!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2015 14:34:51

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Fitting the front

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2015 14:37:10

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

fitting into the back

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2015 14:47:52

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

More fitting onto the back

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2015 15:02:40

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Even more and we're done. Do ask questions if you think I missed something out.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2015 15:10:07

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Fast & furious, yet snug fit!
Had it been me, I´d still be busy gluing in linings. If at all. hehe

So struts are being first glued on the tops underside, then shaped. Interestig to see!
Also how you shape them without touching the top at all. Great control.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2015 15:13:43

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

It seems I completely forgot to take pictures of the planing of the fingerboard. I will be doing a classical next week do I will try and take pictures of that when I get there and add them to the end of the thread when I get there.

I have also skipped gluing all the bindings on and the finger board and the main bit of neck carving as they are covered in the other thread. I mainly wanted to use this to help others.

The next lot is also for Vince.

The first picture is how I hold the guitar in place. I then re-carve the heel so both sides are the same and I also take this moment to start blending the heel into the already carved neck. The knife and the chisel are the only two tools I use to do this.

Next picture. Laying the guitar on the neck rest on the bench I now smooth the rest of the heel out into the neck that I was unable to do with it up on it's side. I finished with sandpaper and a squidgy block.

The third picture shows the marking out of the head to neck transition. I like to use circular transition as it looks more sculpted and to my eye sets it apart from the factory instruments. I then use a knife to rough carve the transition.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (4)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2015 15:24:28

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

I then use sand paper with a rounded something inside. This one just happens to be my burnisher but you could easily use something like a dowl.

The motion used is important here. Starting some way down the neck draw the sanding stick towards the transition smoothing out the knife marks. Starting further down the neck will help you avoid making a trough in the neck around the transition area. I like to rotate the stick as if you are trying to roll back down the neck, to help avoid drawing onto the head. It also gives you a little more control to help keep the area crisp.

The last two pictures are the last thing you asked which was to show you how I polish against the heel. It was difficult to take a picture of as I am usually holding the guitar up on it's binding and polishing the side with the other so you will have to imagine that part. Basically though I just use a rubber with a point on one end and brush sideways against the heel to get the polish on in that area. I do it in the motion as when I am polishing the side. It takes a bit of practice but I don't think it's too hard to get the hang of.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2015 15:36:26

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

One two skip a few and she's finished!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2015 15:44:28

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Again I am sorry it took so long to get the pictures up and stuff but it is very busy around here at the moment.

If you have any further questions just fire away and I will try to remember to get the finger board planing bit up for Echi.

Cheers for reading and hope you enjoyed my follow up from the first student guitar build thread I did.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2015 15:49:48

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Ahh Ruphus managed too sneak a post in there! I guess it's just something I was taught to do and that it just seemed to be the way to do at the time. It totally threw me when I saw folks shaping the struts and then gluing them on! Horses for courses as they say.

I set the heights using a plane and calipers, then use the tiny thumb planes to shape them. I have rounded the edges to allow the blade to cut down to the soundboard but it also, with a light tough, stop it from marking the soundboard.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2015 15:54:53

tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Superb.

Will read the posts and have a proper look at all the pictures to give them the time they deserve, thanks for posting.

Small question for now - are the tuners Rubner?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2015 21:51:19

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

I guess it's just something I was taught to do and that it just seemed to be the way to do at the time.

When able to shape them without marking the soundboard as you do, I imagine them being glued on first to be making for a comfortable retention after all, when working on them.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 21 2015 10:54:36

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Many thanks Tijeretamiel, They are indeed Rubner tuners. I have noticed over the last few years that many proffesional builders are using either Rubners or Gotoh.

My thoughts exactly Ruphus, although that might just be because I can't think of a good way to shape the bars prior to gluing them all. I like to think that perhaps it would give me better control over the size and shape in respect t the effect they wil have on the tone of the guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 21 2015 12:12:48

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

So, you tap / bend / check the top in between when shaping the struts, I guess.
Makes sense. Initially the method seemed strange to layman me, but now not at all anymore.
Thanks, Stephen, for the kind info!

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 21 2015 12:24:36

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Student Model Revisited (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Very enjoyable Stephen. I hope everyone understands what a hassle it is to remember to stop and take photos when you're working.

It's fascinating to see the similarities and differences between methods of construction. We do a lot of things just like you but some processes are completely different.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 21 2015 14:44:09