RE: Foro Flamenco

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RE: Foro Flamenco

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Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Morante)

I think there is a disconnect for many of us who are removed from flamenco as it is in Spain. I remember when a guitarist showed up in San Jose, CA from Madrid many years ago. I started studying with him, and even though he didn't have as many years playing the guitar as I did, he was clearly better and more complete. After considering the matter, it made perfect sense-he simply had access to more experience, and had more support.

I considered my experience in learning western music. I started studying when I was 16, took lessons from different players, played in many groups, played many styles. After going through blues, rock, fusion, jazz, r&B, funk, latin, and yes, even disco gigs, I had a pretty solid background.

Then I started with flamenco-there was one teacher in the area then and I stayed with him for five years. Zero singers from Spain to learn from. Later I learned to play for dance but at that time there were still no singers from Spain in my area. I took lessons from other guitarists, transcribed stuff, etc. Studied recordings. Played for classes, eventually played in some local companies. None of that compared to simply being around a bunch of people who are involved in the music. It was an academic endeavor compared to a life style.

Recently I started doing electric guitar gigs after maybe 25 years of not doing them. It was so easy-like putting on an old pair of slippers that still were broken in to my feet. And all the guys I used to play with, still there, still living the life.

One of my friends, a lifelong professional musician told me 20 years ago that if I really wanted to do flamenco, I should pack up my wife and kids and move to Spain. I knew he was right-that was really the only way to really do it, but I wasn't willing to make that kind of sacrifice. I had to accept that, and I have. I wasn't interested in adopting another culture-I like my own too much.

Morante, and others have made that move, and they have an insight and experience that goes way beyond what is available to those of us who have not. That he posts here is a benefit to us. I'm pretty sure if I was in his shoes, I'd have little use for this forum. After all the real deal is right outside his door. I'm in San Francisco, the source of Latin rock. I know most of the guys from the seminal Latin rock bands. I don't spend any time on Latin rock forums. Why would I?

Here's some reality: That guitarist from Madrid gigged with some locals when he was here. I asked him what he thought of the level of flamenco here in California. He answered "Level? There is no level" He had a vid of a performance he did with some locals. He took it home and watched with his mom. He said they laughed hysterically.

I could go on and relate other interactions with flamencos from Spain, as could many of us who have spent a great deal of time pursuing flamenco. Of course there are some who have the talent and experience to reach a higher level, but IMO that talent is left at least partially unrealized if those individuals don't make the move to the source. I'm inclined to give Morante some leeway, as he is one of the few contacts on the ground we have on the forum.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2015 17:07:34

koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Morante)

The thing that puzzled me the most when I started playing the guitar was the different sub forms(Sorry for my bad English) of each palo. There are so many types of Fandangos, Soleares, Siguiriyas etc. This can be really confusing when you start acompanying cante. Virginia Gamez showed me the difference between many forms using the same letra for the different forms. This way its really easy to hear the difference.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2015 17:08:54

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Mark2)

Mark, that story about a guitarist from Spain is disturbing. It speaks more about him than the level of flamenco in the Bay area. I guess he never interacted with Caminos flamencos. There are more local people that are very good. I've been spending a lot of the time in that area for the past 6 years, and consider it my second home.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2015 17:23:02

sig

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Mark2)

Man, you summed up my trajectory with music and especially flamenco with this post. I was drawn to flamenco when I was around 10 or 11 but living in the Midwest didn't offer any opportunities for learning. I begging my folks for a guitar and took a few lessons and messed about with it best I could until I met some guys in middle school then high school who played. We played mostly rock and one of the guys had a brother in a band and he was a great help. These were the days before the internet so you had to listen to a record over and over again and try and work it out. My fellow band mates didn't understand flamenco nor did they want to.

I never forgot my desire to learn flamenco and about 20 years ago I started back on my journey to learn. I have been lucky to find a local teacher about 11 years ago and then connect with other flamencos in my area to actually get to perform. I have no illusions about my skill level when compared to people who actually grew up playing in this style. I consider myself in Kindergarten compared to many however I try and do the best I can and represent the art form as closely as I'm able.

This would be my biggest fear:
Here's some reality: That guitarist from Madrid gigged with some locals when he was here. I asked him what he thought of the level of flamenco here in California. He answered "Level? There is no level" He had a vid of a performance he did with some locals. He took it home and watched with his mom. He said they laughed hysterically.

I truly hope that artists from Spain or artists that have either been lucky enough or sacrificed enough to spend time in the country of origin learning this wonderful art form would go gentle on me. I would hope they would realize that while I'll never be able to perform at an extremely high level, they would appreciate my commitment to the art form, and my attempts at bringing it to a wider audience.
Sig--

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2015 17:40:56

Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Mark2)

Grisha,

I agree it is disturbing, and the guitarist for Caminos was, IMO, more advanced than the player from Madrid was at that time. I think we can agree he is a very exceptional musician.

An interesting thing happened when the Madrid based player was here. He arranged a concert but before it occurred, he had to go back to Spain until a day before the concert. I was to accompany him on one tune, and backstage before the show, he asked to me look in the theatre to see if anyone showed up. He hadn't had time to do any promotion. It was standing room only. Why? He was from Spain. A local dancer gushed that she preferred his playing over any of the locals
(even the one from Caminos) because he "made her feel more flamenco" Who hasn't seen dance instructors give up their studio time so that visiting dancers from Spain can conduct workshops?

What an interesting thing.......I own a flooring company. If a guy from out of town who was more prominent in my business wanted to take over my warehouse for a few days to host a sale targeting my customers would I offer it to him? That would be absurd.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2015 17:42:35

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Mark2)

Yes, locals are usually appreciated less. When in Cali, I am based in San Jose. Last time I performed there was 2007.

I met and played with the guitarist for Caminos. While we are technically comparable, he runs circles around me in rhythm, improvisation and general creativity.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2015 17:54:20

Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to sig)

Sig,
No one can say what a particular person might be thinking. Just do your thing. I was playing a gig with a local flamenco company and a well known singer from Spain came back stage before the show. A pretty green dancer asked him if he was going to sing with us. He said he would if a professional guitarist showed up. And one did, an American who had spent many years in Spain playing for this very same singer and his famous family. But he didn't perform, the guitarist and him watched the show from the theatre. I can imagine their conversation but I learned back in high school that you can't control what other people think of you so I don't worry about it. It wasn't that the American possessed vastly superior technique-he possessed superior experience. Did the singer need to insult me and the other guitarist I was playing with? No, but he did. Fark him.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2015 18:01:34

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Grisha)

wouldn't it be easier to have a palo thread each subdivided into 3 if relevant ...
e.g.
cante , bailar , tocar ...

makes it easy to find things ...
bulerias pa cantar
bulerias pa bailar
bulerias pa tocar

that kind of thing ..and some stuff is very interchangeable as well ...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2015 21:03:26

sig

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Mark2)

Yeah, you're right, no sense worrying about it. A real artist will see the value in sharing the form with others, irrespective of their talent, while the insecure ones will ridicule or belittle. There are bully's everywhere I suppose...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2015 21:19:48

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Morante)

quote:

Somebody told me that I could find flamenco here. I can´t see it. Where is it?

you haven't posted it yet

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2015 22:02:01

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Mark2)

Actually, Morante posted a lot of flamenco videos that I enjoyed.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2015 23:27:01

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Grisha)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha
Actually, Morante posted a lot of flamenco videos that I enjoyed.

Yeps, I like the videos Morante posts. But I don't recall him posting his own playing.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2015 0:08:44

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Grisha)

quote:

Actually, Morante posted a lot of flamenco videos that I enjoyed.

me too, so why is he complaining he can't find flamenco here?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2015 7:55:23

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Mark2)

quote:

Here's some reality: That guitarist from Madrid gigged with some locals when he was here. I asked him what he thought of the level of flamenco here in California. He answered "Level? There is no level" He had a vid of a performance he did with some locals. He took it home and watched with his mom. He said they laughed hysterically.

Look, to be honest this thing is totally normal. Anyone might be more or less in the know than someone else...and sometimes it comes off hitting a funny bone somewhere. It is not like there is one line to draw regarding level. In the end if we can't laugh at ourselves, then probably take our self way too serious. I will admit I have been made fun of or otherwise put down...but also been in a super awkard position where I had to try as hard as I possible could to NOT laugh at a super green performance. It's only human.

Back on topic, Morante has ALWAYS considered this to be a guitar centric forum...and it has been dicussed in the past. It has to do with the simple fact that for non spanish speakers, guitar is and always has been the great ambassador to the world from spain...not cante. Baile appeals to the even more superficial interests (ie no one that would get so involved as need a forum). Guitar playing is VERY involved activity, regardless of the genre. This thing is only normal, and Morante is simply concerned that aficion only goes so deep in the english speaking universe. This coupled by the fact cante in SPAIN even, has been achieving new lows interms of ability and interest makes mattters worse for the poor guy. He had a cantaor friend that passed a few years ago as well. His post here is no head scratcher.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2015 10:51:04

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)

To me this foro is what keeps international flamenco alive. It's no wonder that most play guitar here since there are so few foreign cantaores. And spanish flamencos rarely speak english, so they rarely come here. Instead of complaining I think this foro is a really important place for foreigners who wish to learn about flamenco.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2015 11:12:27

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

This coupled by the fact cante in SPAIN even, has been achieving new lows interms of ability and interest makes mattters worse for the poor guy.

Gracias Ricardo

You are one of the few.

The other night a cantaor, Raúl de Nerja, who was visiting Cadìz y Jeréz, arrived at my house with his pareja.

I met him several years ago in La Peña Flamenca de Nerja, where I accompanied him and another socio por soléa for half an hour.

Later I discovered him in the best seafood restaurant of Nerja, where he taught me how to open and clean conchas finas.

I suggested going out for tapas, but he wanted to sing. I had to drag my guitar out of the wardrobe, then he sang por soleá, alegrías, tangos, fandangos y bulerías, while we drank a great manzanilla, with tapas of lomito de bellota y queso Manchego.

Then off to Casa Manteca, one of the mítico bars in Cadiz for more tapas y vino. Then all off home after a fine borrachera

Eso se llama flamenco.

un abrazo

Morante

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2015 15:06:56

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Morante)

You expect us to do that over the internet?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2015 15:26:40

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

You expect us to do that over the internet?

Well, you are the great guru who tries to persuade people that they can make a studio quality recording with a 5 centimos micro.

I am sure you can come up with something.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2015 15:46:51

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Mark2)

Morante, so why not record some of this and post here for the people who are deprived of such special moments? I know I would enjoy that.

By the way, in 1994 Paco told me I had to come live in Spain and hang out with flamencos. I never had a chance to do that and possibly never will, although I fully understand that it would benefit me greatly if I did. Not everybody has a life that permits that, unfortunately.

A that time my family had no money even to buy bread every day. After I came to the States, for a long time I had to give house concerts and play at parties passing a hat around for donations. It was the only way to make a living. I know eso no se llama flamenco, pero se llama la vida.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2015 15:58:16

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Grisha)

quote:

so why not record some of this and post here for the people who are deprived of such special moments?

Hola Grisha

I do not posess a video camera or a smartphone. Nor have I ever mastered the problems of posting fotos here, nor do I have much interest.

My wife recorded some on her phone, but it made Raúl sound like a duck and the Gerundino like a tin can

" I know eso no se llama flamenco, pero se llama la vida."

You are absolutely right; flamenco is just another way of life. Pohren had it right all along.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2015 18:18:27

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Morante)

quote:

Well, you are the great guru who tries to persuade people that they can make a studio quality recording with a 5 centimos micro.

Yeah, I do it for the money you know.. trying to make a living here..

BTW, I never said that, not even once.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2015 18:31:51

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Mark2)

Flamenco has always been somewhat mysterious and underground, over the period of 9 months(3 of which were in jerez) that I spent in andalucia I didn't encounter flamenco on the streets. Most of it is in the few circles of the aficionados, especially in the peñas flamencas, therefore to complain about the only place that connects the foreign flamenco aficionados not having flamenco talk or not being flamenco enough(and pat oneself on the back about own flamenco experiences in andalucia) is simply rude.
I see nothing but flamenco on the first page of the general section.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2015 22:25:00

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to tele)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2015 13:15:35

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shroomy726

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shroomy726

Just posting this thread reveals how miserable and sad your life is, Morante.

I hope things get better for you.

That's a bit harsh but maybe meant to be equally provocative as the original post.

Yes, meant to be as harsh as his indirect insults to the foro. This is not the first time, by far, that he brings this stuff up. Maybe I have better memory than most here, but no need to revisit this over and over again. But I'll let Morante and his followers jerk each other off. Carry on...

Being a follower and having empathy are quite different. I have harshly jumped on Morante in the past. At this point I look forward to reading his same old sentiments now and again....if not appearing on regular intervals I feel something missing. Same for Richard or Bill history lessons or Ruphus latest census on number of evil capitalist billionaire earth destroyers....at this super peaceful low traffic point in the history of foro, it's all quite welcome IMO.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2015 13:31:35

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Mark2)

[Deleted by Admins]

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2015 13:56:53

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Morante)

quote:

Somebody told me that I could find flamenco here. I can´t see it. Where is it?

quote:

The other night a cantaor, Raúl de Nerja, who was visiting Cadìz y Jeréz, arrived at my house with his pareja.

I met him several years ago in La Peña Flamenca de Nerja, where I accompanied him and another socio por soléa for half an hour.

Later I discovered him in the best seafood restaurant of Nerja, where he taught me how to open and clean conchas finas.

I suggested going out for tapas, but he wanted to sing. I had to drag my guitar out of the wardrobe, then he sang por soleá, alegrías, tangos, fandangos y bulerías, while we drank a great manzanilla, with tapas of lomito de bellota y queso Manchego.

Then off to Casa Manteca, one of the mítico bars in Cadiz for more tapas y vino. Then all off home after a fine borrachera

Eso se llama flamenco.

un abrazo

Morante

so..... what do you suggest?
Only allow members who live in Andalucía and live flamenco like you do to post?
Convince anyone outside of Andalucía to give up any interest in flamenco?
Stop calling this forum "flamenco" (and if so, what do you suggest it be called)?
Just give up and close the whole thing down?

Come on man, it's no good just bitchin about it, this forum is for flamenco enthusiasts, fans, aficionados etc. from all over the world.
Most are not living in Spain, let alone Andalucía. A lot of us would love to play for real live singers.
Sure, some people are "only" interested in the guitar, but that's only because the rest of us haven't sufficiently educated them in cante appreciation yet....

I guess you are probably frustrated that no one (except Ricardo) is on your level of cante aficion.
Why not post more stuff on cante for people like me who are interested, and to get more people interested?
A lot of your posts just seem to be boasting about the great stuff you get to eat, drink, listen to and play, and sometimes I'm not sure what the point of that is?
How about teaching people how to appreciate the things you appreciate, instead of rubbing their noses in the fact you are doing it for real and the rest of us are just wannabe's?
You could try sharing your knowledge and experience, educating people in the things you appreciate?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2015 15:40:10

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Mark2)

The reality is Morante loves this place and us. Otherwise why would he be such a regular. He's like that grumpy uncle that complains about us kids and waxes poetic of the good ol days but ultimately, he IS family, and beyond that hard exterior is a velvety soft interior that loves his little guitar buddies on the Internet.

Beyond all this, we love him too, we need that perspective or "feet on the ground" as someone put it. Of course he could go about it more nicely, but that's just not him, he's the grumpy uncle and that's fine with me. Lol

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2015 16:21:21

Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Guest)

Hell yeah, we should bring back the professor and Jason and that other dude who he tweaked, Cory. Ricardo just wrote about how there are all different levels. There are also different views. It seems like it's ok to bash some guy who hasn't figured out compas but calls himself a master on youtube but if someone who actually is a pro calls out some dufus who is a foro member, he gets removed. As far as the prof, he may in fact be a lunatic, but he actually has some knowledge. I'd rather sort through his rambling bs than read about some dude who wants to know how to tap his foot. I'd rather have that guitarist from Madrid render his opinion, and have him state why he feels the way he does, than read another post about who is creating turmoil. Shroooomy you offended me by implying members who aren't offended by morante participate in gay sex acts....omg you should be banned for sure. We need a safe space to discuss flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2015 16:40:51

JohnWalshGuitar

Posts: 517
Joined: Aug. 10 2009

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Mark2)

What the hell is 'cante'? Is it something got to do with castanets? Is it a scale or something?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2015 17:15:46

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Foro Flamenco (in reply to Morante)

quote:

The other night a cantaor, Raúl de Nerja, who was visiting Cadìz y Jeréz, arrived at my house with his pareja.

I met him several years ago in La Peña Flamenca de Nerja, where I accompanied him and another socio por soléa for half an hour.

Later I discovered him in the best seafood restaurant of Nerja, where he taught me how to open and clean conchas finas.

I suggested going out for tapas, but he wanted to sing. I had to drag my guitar out of the wardrobe, then he sang por soleá, alegrías, tangos, fandangos y bulerías, while we drank a great manzanilla, with tapas of lomito de bellota y queso Manchego.

Hey...Raul is a good friend of mine. Unfortunately the Peña flamenca of Nerja doesnt exist any more but I passed many happy nights with there with Raul, Fali (who passed away) Joaquin Heredia, Angelito and the Nerja Flamencos.
Occasionally guys like Chonchi Heredia, Jose Frances, El Chato de Velez and Remedios Amaya would drop in for an impromtu performance.
Times like these are the "real flamenco" experiences that Morente is talking about and unfortunately you will be very lucky to see them out side of Spain unless you happen to be in the Flamenco circles of San Fran, New york, London, Berlin etc. and someone can connect you to the right juegas with visiting artists.

Morente- I gotta agree with some of the opinions here. You and I are lucky to be able to see amazing flamenco more or less any week that we want to and meet these amazing personalities. This is an international forum mainly for English speakers. I have always been of the attitude that we lucky guys in Spain should be SHARING our experience for the benefit of those who cant be here rather than berating those who want to learn but dont have the opportunity. Its not everyone who can just move to Spain for their art...life is just not that simple.
I consider myself to be extremely blessed to have had some of the flamenco experiences that I have in the last 15 years but i would never want to insult any forum members here who love flamenco music and love their instruments but didnt have the chance to spend time having the sorts of nights that you are talking about.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2015 18:30:54