Wrist position

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Wrist position

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El Rey De los Bagres

Posts: 86
Joined: Apr. 29 2014

Wrist position

I am currently browsing trough Scott Tennant's Pumping Nylon and was wondering if any of you pro's can give me tips on how to keep my right wrist straight(like the illustration to left)without coming to close to the Sound-hole? Tips much appreciated!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 28 2015 18:24:35

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Wrist position (in reply to El Rey De los Bagres)

The only way I can think of is to lower the guitar or raise your arm from the elbow/shoulder.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 28 2015 19:45:32

El Rey De los Bagres

Posts: 86
Joined: Apr. 29 2014

RE: Wrist position (in reply to rombsix)

I am having real issues finding a 'comfortable' position in witch i can relax, is there any formula for this or is it trial and error? With formula i mean like a guideline i can start with and then work from there, since we all have different body-types.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 28 2015 20:01:40

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Wrist position (in reply to El Rey De los Bagres)

I'm certainly no pro, but a straight wrist would be pretty uncommon for alzapua. Having said that, Morente played his alzapua pretty flat compared to say Gerardo.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 28 2015 23:18:37

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Wrist position (in reply to Dudnote)

quote:

Morente

?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 29 2015 9:52:10

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Wrist position (in reply to El Rey De los Bagres)

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Rey De los Bagres

I am currently browsing trough Scott Tennant's Pumping Nylon and was wondering if any of you pro's can give me tips on how to keep my right wrist straight(like the illustration to left)without coming to close to the Sound-hole? Tips much appreciated!

THat's for classical sound....the nails come at an angle deliberately. Flamenco players usually twist the wrist sideways so nails hit strings straight on...for arps picado tremolo etc....pulgar/alzapua alone takes on a different position and finally rasgueados would be the only thing that might be similar to the straight wrist scott tennant deal.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 29 2015 12:42:07

El Rey De los Bagres

Posts: 86
Joined: Apr. 29 2014

RE: Wrist position (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

THat's for classical sound....the nails come at an angle deliberately. Flamenco players usually twist the wrist sideways so nails hit strings straight on...for arps picado tremolo etc....pulgar/alzapua alone takes on a different position and finally rasgueados would be the only thing that might be similar to the straight wrist scott tennant deal.

Ricardo

Oh man you have no idea how relieved this makes me to hear. One, because then i am doing things right. And two, then i don't have to undo years of "bad habit" .

At the present moment i am in "manic guitar player mode" trying to find things that can make me a tad bit better even if it is lying under the rug. I should have asked myself is this transferable to Flamenco.

What sort of convinced me was this statement that makes sense.

"In order for the fingers to work correctly the, comfortably, and for extended periods of time, the tendons must be as free as possible to move around(like the cables that they are)inside the carpal tunnel."

Thanks again Richardo!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 29 2015 14:42:41

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Wrist position (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Morente
?

Ooops! I should get more sleep - obviously I meant "Moraito"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 29 2015 20:30:58

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: Wrist position (in reply to El Rey De los Bagres)

quote:

At the present moment i am in "manic guitar player mode" trying to find things that can make me a tad bit better even if it is lying under the rug. I should have asked myself is this transferable to Flamenco.

there are good classical players who don't use a flat wrist so don't take Tennant's advice as gospel. and wrist position depends on what you're playing anyway. i think Tennant means not to exaggerate that wrist position, although some flamenco thumb techniques require it

Adam del Monte plays both classical and flamenco expertly. look at his wrist position in ths video @1:11

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2015 9:40:41

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Wrist position (in reply to El Rey De los Bagres)

I've been experimenting with flat wrist position for 5 days now. I think I finally understand how to do it. There are definitely benefits to it, as it takes away a lot of tension.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2015 18:10:49

El Rey De los Bagres

Posts: 86
Joined: Apr. 29 2014

RE: Wrist position (in reply to Grisha)

quote:

I've been experimenting with flat wrist position for 5 days now. I think I finally understand how to do it.

Interesting would you like to share your experience maybe, what made you start experimenting with it?

For playing classic or flamenco or both, do you sit in the same position as(and attack the strings in the same angle as )before?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2015 19:03:23

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Wrist position (in reply to El Rey De los Bagres)

I will post some videos in the near future. I just need to figure out where.

The reason I gave it a try is because I've never been satisfied with my scales. I always felt uncomfortable reaching bass strings.

I sit in the same position for classical or flamenco. But for classical I prefer my old hand position because it gives scales a warmer tone.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2015 19:18:25

El Rey De los Bagres

Posts: 86
Joined: Apr. 29 2014

RE: Wrist position (in reply to Grisha)

quote:

I will post some videos in the near future. I just need to figure out where.

Please do!

quote:

I sit in the same position for classical or flamenco. But for classical I prefer my old hand position because it gives scales a warmer tone.

Спасибо!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 2 2015 19:22:13

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Wrist position (in reply to El Rey De los Bagres)

My wrist has flattened out quite a bit since i started using a guitar
support. It has helped with my picado very much. Arps are a bit
snappier too.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2015 0:47:55

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Wrist position (in reply to El Rey De los Bagres)

Right now I am in between two positions when I play my repertoire. So I miss a lot of notes and my speed has dropped maybe 40 bpm. But when I practice it in isolation, although it is slower than my old way, it's more stable and comfortable.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 3 2015 1:19:39

JonathanMtz

Posts: 26
Joined: Apr. 26 2015

RE: Wrist position (in reply to El Rey De los Bagres)

Okay, so this could sound silly but it helped me a lot to really feel what is like to have a flat wrist. So, take your hand and just scratch your knee from the second knuckle, try to do it multiple times. Once you know how it feels and looks try to take that same position into your playing, I use this mostly for arpeggios but of course like any technique you can modify it to your needs. Let me know if it helps

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 4 2015 23:40:17

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Wrist position (in reply to El Rey De los Bagres)

I think it's inappropriate to tell the proper pulgar position as it varies alot in my experience(and when viewing pro players), especially the wrist arches more if playing pulgar by moving the wrist(instead of thumb only) or alzapua.

I've noticed when I started playing that it was first difficult to keep the wrist relatively straight when playing picado but with pulgar/alzapua techniques I feel like the only time when it's required to keep the hand closer to the top is when playing with the side of your thumb without the nail for soft notes.

When starting playing flamenco, all sorts of guides can easily be followed too much(no matter how good the guidebook or video is), in my experience the main thing is to find what works best for you without restricting your playing or causing you strain, as we can see most professionals have varying techniques, even when it comes to matters like keeping the hand close to the top.

What I see as the advice in the book is that don't arch too much as it can be restricting and in general bad technique, however stressing about is unnecessary because I think the wrist adjusts itself once technique is improved.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2015 9:47:12

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Wrist position (in reply to El Rey De los Bagres)

Here is a good vid to focus on wrist position. Notice from front it looks flat but from the side you can see there is always a slight curve. Not many more relaxed with strong tone looking hands than Monolo's. Notice his Brother is exaggerating the position...the reason his arm looks so high up is because he wants to play very close the the bridge for some reason with picado and arps. But I feel Manolo is exemplary.

http://youtu.be/s7vs7Mf0tLs

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2015 11:32:55

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Wrist position (in reply to Ricardo)

wrist position is my real big problem , if i can get it right it makes a huge difference to me ...

Do you rest the top of your arm on the top guitar side, Ricardo ?
Anyway I see the arm off the guitar for picado and then , it seems a bit on the guitar for rasguerdo ...
course he using a foot stool .. which i dont . so the position of the foot dictates the height of the guitar and so the angle of the arm ....

like the footbones connected to the ....thigh bone ....

the thumb is fairly curved , more than mine , and is always on the 6th string for picado ....unless , of course the run comes down to the 6th then it drops to the body just above ...
it seems a fairly light touch though ....
i shall further study the video ....thanks ...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2015 17:52:25

Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Wrist position (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

Do you rest the top of your arm on the top guitar side, Ricardo ?

sometimes but it is only convenience. The important thing is the way the nails come at the strings to make the sound you want. All the rest must fall in line to let that happen. Practice on a small guitar body like a ukelele or small guitar and it's impossible to rest your arm anywhere, but you still attack the strings the same for all techniques.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2015 11:28:01

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Wrist position (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Here is a good vid to focus on wrist position. ...

http://youtu.be/s7vs7Mf0tLs

Worth noting I think how his wrist isn´t bent inwards at all, but a bit forward. Also his bending sideways is minimal. All looking ergonomical to me.
-

And what a pleasure to watch this! (As well as the solo on same scene, following right afterwards.)

How I prefer those old pieces with their tradional devotion to melody and overall musical structure, to athletic surrealism of past decades that´s basically held together through compas.

But even the compas of the old stuff was way more expressive.
Simply, the aim of the whole thing was just music, -and you had to be spot on with almost every single note.

Love it!
- Hoping the scene to return to there, in place of sporting PdL licks. (Which were alright as an individual virtuoso´s path, but not worth suplementing the perfected traditional fundus.)

Hear me, Grisha?

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2015 13:54:35

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Wrist position (in reply to Ricardo)

question ...how does one know when youve got as good as you can ....?

meaning .. not everyone can play as good as the best ( .PDL , SANLUCAR )etc . .despite long hours .. focusing on technique .. good teachers etc ..
can you reach a point where your picado / tremolo etc just isnt gonna get any better cos i am who i am ?....
how would you know when this point arrives ..?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2015 17:35:38

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Wrist position (in reply to El Rey De los Bagres)

I hear you, Ruphus. I love both styles, actually.

Outside of his trio project, Paco de Lucia never used his licks for the sake of empty showmanship, and even there it always carried energy and assisted his phrasing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2015 17:39:32

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Wrist position (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

question ...how does one know when youve got as good as you can ....? meaning .. not everyone can play as good as the best ( .PDL , SANLUCAR )etc . .despite long hours .. focusing on technique .. good teachers etc .. can you reach a point where your picado / tremolo etc just isnt gonna get any better cos i am who i am ?....
how would you know when this point arrives ..?

Interesting question, El Kiko. I think the answer to your question might depend on what you consider your relation is to flamenco guitar. If one plays for enjoyment, and the guitar is an avocation that one pursues as a sideline to another profession or job, and one practices at most, say, two hours a day. one may hit a certain level that cannot be breached.

On the other hand, if one's goal is to play flamenco guitar professionally, and one practices up to eight hours a day (as PDL is reported to have done, at least at one period in his career), it is very possible that the very same person will overcome the plateau that would have been reached with only two hours of practice a day, and break through to a higher level of play.

In both cases involving the same individual there probably is a plateau beyond which his individual talent and drive just cannot go. But the plateau would be different in each case.

Bill

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2015 18:16:59

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Wrist position (in reply to BarkellWH)

i see your point ..

not sure if i totally agree though ....because you play more you get better ......
always .......everyone ...........

Doesnt that indicate you can reach any point you want ...given enough time ....

My point is ..i dont think that is a true statement that covers majority of people ....

e.g. ... i have a friend who plays a lot .. really a lot .. gigs n everything ....but 9 not being nasty or anything ) he just will never play jazz guitar as good as me ...( bg headed statement , i know ) but its because he is who he is ,, and i am who i am ...
he could get a bit better ,, maybe .. but ...

the reason i got into jazz as a kid was .. i found it easy .. i couldnt see how others didnt hear the same things as me ...so i got on really fast , learning was a joy and easy to do ....

with flamenco , its different .. i feel defeated my my own right hand ... even though the argument is ...all our hands are the same ...were all essentially the same .....and yet some small differences mean .....were not the same ...some things just dont happen ...

i'll have to think a bit more on this...............

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2015 19:23:38

timoteo

Posts: 219
Joined: Jun. 22 2012
From: Seattle, USA

RE: Wrist position (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

quote:

Do you rest the top of your arm on the top guitar side, Ricardo ?

sometimes but it is only convenience. The important thing is the way the nails come at the strings to make the sound you want. All the rest must fall in line to let that happen. Practice on a small guitar body like a ukelele or small guitar and it's impossible to rest your arm anywhere, but you still attack the strings the same for all techniques.

I hold my guitar in the traditional way, where the weight of the upper arm resting on top side of the guitar holds the lower bout in place against the right leg.

I find that the amount I need to bend my wrist is determined almost entirely by geometry - my arm is a fixed length and the guitar is a fixed size, so if I want to play near the bridge I can't keep my wrist flat. If I flatten my wrist then I end up playing over the sound hole.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2015 19:36:12

El Rey De los Bagres

Posts: 86
Joined: Apr. 29 2014

RE: Wrist position (in reply to El Rey De los Bagres)

Thanks for all the advice really appreciate it, There are lots of ways to do things. Reminds me not to be dogmatic about things

After all advice i came to the conclusion that i will try to keep as small a arch as possible and play with a straight wrist when the technique allows me.

i found this 'exercise' for me to relax more and find a better body position before i start playing 'music' Is playing arpeggios(P i,P m,P a,P i m,P i a,P m a, P i m a,P i m a m i,P m i...etc) over open strings with the finger anchored to the strings i.e only leaving the strings when playing a note @ lets say 70 bpm. And i focus on being as relaxed as possible and keeping a consistent tone.

After a while i find a decent position where i can be as relaxed as i can get, tremolo on the b string over lets say E major so i only need to focus on the right hand i something that works to for me.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2015 22:29:38

El Rey De los Bagres

Posts: 86
Joined: Apr. 29 2014

RE: Wrist position (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

he solo on same scene, following right afterwards.)

How I prefer those old pieces with their tradional devotion to melody and overall musical structure, to athletic surrealism of past decades that´s basically held together through compas.

But even the compas of the old stuff was way more expressive.
Simply, the aim of the whole thing was just music, -and you had to be spot on with almost every single note.

Love it!
- Hoping the scene to return to there, in place of sporting PdL licks. (Which were alright as an individual virtuoso´s path, but not worth suplementing the perfected traditional fundus.)

Hear me, Grisha?

Ruphus

Todo tiene su gusto.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2015 22:35:52

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Wrist position (in reply to El Rey De los Bagres)

Replies taken.
Can´t go further into it, in order to avoid A/B-ing.

Just would love to see the genre returning to former consistency (or whatever term you could think of). To melodies with refinement over generations / through collective intelligence that shows in the harmony.

Stuff like above, which I could listen to all day long, thrilled each time again.
Killer!

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2015 0:54:01

aloysius

Posts: 233
Joined: Apr. 7 2005
From: Adelaide, Australia

RE: Wrist position (in reply to El Rey De los Bagres)

Good discussion you've started here. It does depend on the length of your arms a bit - many teachers I've had in Spain are quite short, and can rest their arm comfortably on the guitar, keep a straight enough wrist and have their hand end up half way between the bridge and sound hole. When I do the same thing my hand is right over the sound hole. If you have long arms it's useful to look at some of Spain's taller players - Miguel Angel Cortes is the main one that comes to mind. He wraps his right arm further around the side of the guitar with his elbow further back - he still gets some support from the guitar to avoid shoulder tension, and gets his hand in a good spot relative to the bridge for a flamenco tone. Compare this to Gerardo's (shorter armed) position.

In terms of anatomy of course a straight carpel tunnel is better - however there needs to be some amount of compromise to allow for the variety of movement flamenco demands as Ricardo explained. If you play music without strumming or any technique that involves rotating the wrist, then possibly the optimum playing position is upright between the legs like a cello - Paul Galbraith and many of his followers do this to great effect. But for many rasgueos and even plain flamenco pulgar technique that position won't work.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2015 21:54:42