Foro Flamenco


Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





how hard to play, physically?   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1] 2    >   >>
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

how hard to play, physically? 
What is the consensus on how hard one should play to achieve optimum flamenco tone/volume/projection?

Having sat across from Diego del Morao in a workshop, I don't remember him playing very loudly, yet I consider his sound no less 'flamenco' than, say, El Perla, who I also took workshops with, and he plays loud as a beast.

this issue is of particular struggle for me. Having playing acoustically alongside loud percussionists for years, I've developed what I think is a very strong right hand. Other non-flamenco guitarists always comment on the force and projection I can get. But among flamencos, it appears "loud" is pretty common, so based on that, I've just been doing what I've been doing.
But I'm hitting a wall whereby I do gigs with drums, elec bass.. everyone is loud, and before I know it, I'm trying to play so hard and loud to be heard that I loose my touch and facility. Especially with picado.
I see videos of many guys using the 'paco technique' (right angle elbow lifed up high, low profile hand, force coming from the knuckles, etc) and it strikes me as possibly the answer.
That one can use their shoulder and large surrounding muscles to produce the force while channeling it through the piston like motion of the knuckles that drive the fingers up and down, but using the lower 2 joints of the fingers so minimally that it serves the efficiency principle and allows for precision yet also with tons of power.

Or.. Paco just looks like he's playing louder than he really is.

And it you would in your answer, can you qualify the setting you're playing in? The nature of my quandry is embedded in the setting; "loud" in this case is in order to be heard, or so you can play into a microphone whose gain is set so that it doesn't feed back. It's no loud for the sake of being loud. This is a working guitarist's dilemma!

(meaning, if you have a quiet technique and crank up the mic to 'hear', the mic gets so hot it feedsback or catches the surrounding instruments. And that's no good)
Thanks!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2015 22:04:46
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to turnermoran) 
I was always considered an power player but I wouldn't hesitate to use a mic if I had to play with percussionists. The guitar is basically a parlor instrument with nowhere near the volume to compete with percussion, brass, etc.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2015 22:18:36
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to turnermoran) 
Yeah I don't understand why you'd want to compete with drummers. I play without mic for dance classes and have not had anyone complain about being too quiet, but I'd never even try in a live performance situation. Mic up and pull back, why kill yourself in the age of technology....

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2015 22:40:55
 
hamia

 

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to turnermoran) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: turnermoran
I see videos of many guys using the 'paco technique' (right angle elbow lifed up high, low profile hand, force coming from the knuckles, etc) and it strikes me as possibly the answer.
That one can use their shoulder and large surrounding muscles to produce the force while channeling it through the piston like motion of the knuckles that drive the fingers up and down, but using the lower 2 joints of the fingers so minimally that it serves the efficiency principle and allows for precision yet also with tons of power.


You are quite deluded about Paco. Nothing is coming from the shoulder. The shoulder/upper arm is only raised up in order to allow the right hand to keep the same low profile shape as it moves up and down the strings (6th to 1st and back). He is also using the middle knuckle (mostly) to provide the power. And this power comes from the tendons/muscles in the forearm. Paco is also trying to pull the strings to the side - not push them down. Pushing them down would be difficult with the compact hand position - as the most natural movement is to the side. Now, in theory pushing down would give the louder sound but this is a red herring as the force you can get from the middle knuckle (using forearm muscles) is immense, i.e. the sideways pull can be very strong with practice. This is exactly how I play and I can play very fast and very loud (after a good warm up!). But it's taken me nearly 10 years to get to this position.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2015 4:06:10
 
Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to hamia) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: hamia
Now, in theory pushing down would give the louder sound but this is a red herring as the force you can get from the middle knuckle (using forearm muscles) is immense, i.e. the sideways pull can be very strong with practice. This is exactly how I play and I can play very fast and very loud (after a good warm up!).


Could you please upload a video of yourself with a close up view demonstrating this?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2015 8:05:09
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to turnermoran) 
quote:

That one can use their shoulder and large surrounding muscles to produce the force while channeling it through the piston like motion of the knuckles that drive the fingers up and down, but using the lower 2 joints of the fingers so minimally that it serves the efficiency principle and allows for precision yet also with tons of power.


you need some basic anatomy and physiology - the muscles in the shoulder region do not operate the fingers. Trying to use muscles in the shoulder and upper arm to move the fingers will only create unnecessary muscle tension.

But to orient the hand and fingers to the strings sure, muscles in the upper arm and shoulder will need to be involved.

Yeah I know, this is kind of what Hamia said.

and use a mic!!!

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2015 11:27:41
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to turnermoran) 
Opinions vary widely on the subject of technique and the body, so I don't expect we will all agree on the subject, but I am of the opinion that guitar playing is a more holistic activity then we often think.
I didn't mean to suggest that the shoulder muscles are what make the fingers move but I would put forth that if you sit at a table completely relaxed with your forearms on the table and wiggle your fingers you can clearly see that your shoulder may have little or nothing to do with that movement.
But if you lift your arm in the air and do the same thing you can feel a variety of muscles engaged to lift your arm. Personally, from this point I can choose to make a mental separation between the stomach, shoulder, pectoral, back and upper arm muscles engaged in lifting my arm, all being separate from what happens from the elbow to the fingers, but I prefer to try to feel connected to all of these muscles and tendons in the way to disperse the work load and remain in touch with the interconnectedness of the human body.

And as we know, there are many techniques in guitar playing in which you can lift your upper arm or otherwise engage it versus leaving it relaxed on the rim of the guitar. Another variable…

Adam Del Monte makes an excellent point in an article on Picado technique he just wrote for the new digital flamenco magazine put out by Ben Woods. He basically says thatlifting the upper arm will necessarily create some amount of tension but we should be realistic in practice and performance of picado, and bear in mind it should not last longer than 8 to 10 seconds. (This is another quandary of mine: if the act of lifting the arm is a negative in the scope of guitar playing or if it can be used positively as a source of power.

But anyway, this is all getting a little off subject from what I intended on asking.

My question should've been something like:

Consider how loud you're able to play when you play slow passage of music. When youplay it at the fastest tempo you are able, do you still play with the same amount of volume and force?
If you play a little quieter do you play more accurately?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2015 15:13:53
 
hamia

 

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to turnermoran) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: turnermoran

Opinions vary widely on the subject of technique and the body, so I don't expect we will all agree on the subject, but I am of the opinion that guitar playing is a more holistic activity then we often think.
I didn't mean to suggest that the shoulder muscles are what make the fingers move but I would put forth that if you sit at a table completely relaxed with your forearms on the table and wiggle your fingers you can clearly see that your shoulder may have little or nothing to do with that movement.
But if you lift your arm in the air and do the same thing you can feel a variety of muscles engaged to lift your arm. Personally, from this point I can choose to make a mental separation between the stomach, shoulder, pectoral, back and upper arm muscles engaged in lifting my arm, all being separate from what happens from the elbow to the fingers, but I prefer to try to feel connected to all of these muscles and tendons in the way to disperse the work load and remain in touch with the interconnectedness of the human body.

And as we know, there are many techniques in guitar playing in which you can lift your upper arm or otherwise engage it versus leaving it relaxed on the rim of the guitar. Another variable…

Adam Del Monte makes an excellent point in an article on Picado technique he just wrote for the new digital flamenco magazine put out by Ben Woods. He basically says thatlifting the upper arm will necessarily create some amount of tension but we should be realistic in practice and performance of picado, and bear in mind it should not last longer than 8 to 10 seconds. (This is another quandary of mine: if the act of lifting the arm is a negative in the scope of guitar playing or if it can be used positively as a source of power.

But anyway, this is all getting a little off subject from what I intended on asking.

My question should've been something like:

Consider how loud you're able to play when you play slow passage of music. When youplay it at the fastest tempo you are able, do you still play with the same amount of volume and force?
If you play a little quieter do you play more accurately?


Lifting the upper arm is not really very comfortable but the discomfort, and any tension, is in the upper arm or shoulder area and not connected at all with the muscles in the forearm needed for picado. So apart from feeling uncomfortable it has no adverse effect. And as you point out it's not raised for a long period of time. One of the hard things with this raised arm technique is controlling the movement of the fingers up and down the strings (1st to 6th string and back). You need a smooth motion. A key piece of advice I recently gleaned from a Ruben Diaz video (can I mention that name?) is not to anchor the thumb when practicing. Let the fingers themselves work out how to move across the strings. It's very good advice and I've improved a lot in the past 6 months. Of course, when not practicing you can anchor the thumb for extra security.
To address your question. The slower you play the louder you can play. But it's an irrelevant point. You can play fast and loud (enough). And of course when I say fast I mean fast with control. And control is got through practice, scales, speed bursts,etc. For the first couple of years I played I used really excessive force. I thought this would increase strength - and it did in fact. But it didn't help at all with speed. When trying to play fast use moderate to light strength (at least at first) and use speed bursts. Work up from 3 notes to 5 to 7 etc. And include string crossings with various right hand and left hand fingers. Another tip. Get a small practice tool or 'silent' guitar and practice when doing other things, eg on a plane, watching TV, etc. You can do i,m on string 2, and then i,m on string 1 and repeat for 1 hour. And make up various patterns. It's very useful.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2015 16:21:21
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to turnermoran) 
Dynamics and volume are two different things. Dynamics are what YOU produce musically, and relatively. Volume is how loud it sounds to the outside world. Dynamics are playing technique, volume is equipment/venue. You can't control volume all the time unless you are really incharge of the whole business. I recommend learn about it. Meanwhile, you can work on your playing technique...be like Paco sure good advice...if you know what HE is doing. Don't want to get into pinkies shoulders and knuckles yet again...

If you can play staccato, it is not a forceful thing to project strong dynamics. The notes pop out with little effort because have learned how to control rhtyhm and pre set or plant the fingers for a well controlled tone. In terms of dynamics, the opposite problem occurs to newcomers to rasgueado technique. A lot of folks have a wild noisy rasgueado at speed...then a weak arpegio etc. One needs to learn how to control dynamics and rhythm in general for all techniques.

Good luck, hope that helps.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2015 17:48:36
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to turnermoran) 
quote:

I am of the opinion that guitar playing is a more holistic activity then we often think.


you mean you gotta sit in a chair to play guitar? and use some muscles in the torso to sit? and you gotta flex your bicep to raise your left hand to the fretboard? and to move the fingertips from contacting the 1st string to contacting the 6th you gonna need some movements in your arm? if that's what you mean by "holistic" then sure.... but the fingers are still moved by muscles below the elbow. it's not instead of, it's as well as.

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2015 22:10:27
 
DavRom

 

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to turnermoran) 
quote:

Consider how loud you're able to play when you play slow passage of music. When youplay it at the fastest tempo you are able, do you still play with the same amount of volume and force?
If you play a little quieter do you play more accurately?


it's all relative

you can listen to two guitarists playing the same music and the softer player can be more enjoyable if his range of dynamics is wider and more musical
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2015 8:21:51
 
hamia

 

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to turnermoran) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: turnermoran

Or.. Paco just looks like he's playing louder than he really is.



Like you I used to be puzzled by this. We play the guitar so we know the sounds it makes. How much force to get a certain response. And then we listen to Paco playing Fuente y Caudel or Plaza de San Juan, and we work out it's not just the mike but that he is hitting those strings pretty damn hard (arpeggios, picado, etc). And when we see videos we have to reconcile this with the very small finger movement. It's observations like these that will lead you to the right path.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2015 17:14:02
 
Grisha

 

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
 

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to turnermoran) 
We need Juan to chime in. He has great picado with excellent attack. Where is he, by the way?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2015 17:45:58
 
hamia

 

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to Grisha) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha

We need Juan to chime in. He has great picado with excellent attack. Where is he, by the way?


I'm sure he'll pop up with a Youtube vid...wait for it ....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2015 19:03:10
 
Grisha

 

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
 

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to turnermoran) 
Well, he won't if you say things like that. I know I wouldn't.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2015 19:14:41
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to Grisha) 
Grisha - I'd love to hear your thoughts on how much force should be exerted on the strings. How much do you use and what was your experience in deciding on the direction to go?

Thanks in advance for any advice

For that matter, the more the merrier! Please chime in gente.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2015 21:58:16
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to turnermoran) 
It's gotta depend guitar to guitar too. My three guitars behave totally different. At some point all guitars have a breaking point where they sound like a blown speaker, I notice my cheaper guitars have a lower breaking point, and at the same time I have to play them harder to get good tone. EG possible dynamic range is pretty limited compared to my better guitar. Though, none of my guitars are great.

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2015 22:05:14
 
Grisha

 

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
 

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to turnermoran) 
Well, I am an odd one here. I am basically classically taught by my father and self-taught after that. Never had a flamenco teacher even for a second. Got my hand on videos in my late teens, already with established technique.

When I play I exert a lot of force, but I push the string down instead of pulling towards the lower string. It allows for clean and loud sound, but it does not exactly sound like Paco's picado. I think perhaps pulling more towards the next string gives you a more percussive attack with less force. It creates a bit of buzz and gives you an illusion of more energy.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2015 22:11:39
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to turnermoran) 
With the buzz coming from hitting fret wire, it would confirm the claim of the amplitude ending up 90° to the plane of attack.

When I tried checking it out, it appeared like viable.
-

Further:
quote:

According to [Fletcher and Rossing,1998]:


“Presumably, a player can greatly alter the tone of a guitar by adjusting the angle through which the string is plucked... When the string is plucked perpendicular to the top plate, a strong but rapidly decaying tone is obtained. When the string is plucked parallel to the plate, on the other hand, a weaker but longer tone results... The spectra of the initial and final parts of the tone vary substantially, as do the decay rates.”

http://acoustics.org/pressroom/httpdocs/160th/carral.html

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2015 11:37:46
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to Leñador) 
Lenador - thanks! Sounds like you're playing in service of the guitar; trying to get the sound the way you want, and not playing past the point of breaking up.
Rather than say you're going to play the same way regardless of the guitar...

Do you feel like your technique/strength enables you to play any guitar, or do you run into guitar that are too stiff?..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2015 15:15:59
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to Grisha) 
Grisha - thanks

This idea of 'not plucking 100% downward into the top of the guitar' that keeps coming up is interesting.
I've heard so consistently that the model for rest stroke technique is 'loose finger tip joint and push down into the guitar', and I struggled with it for a long time with that, as my tip joints don't seem that flexible.

It was encouraging to read Del Monte's article on picado practice in which he mentions the many ways our hands and bodies differ and that not everyone's tip joints are the same. and to find your way with respect to your own hands/body.

Curious to hear what Juan is doing in this regard..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2015 15:21:06
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to Leñador) 
quote:

Yeah I don't understand why you'd want to compete with drummers. I play without mic for dance classes and have not had anyone complain about being too quiet, but I'd never even try in a live performance situation. Mic up and pull back, why kill yourself in the age of technology....


I was speaking of rumba gigs.. jammed onto a small stage with drum kit, elec bass, etc
So:
mic doesn't work - too feedback prone
volume is loud as hell - can't ask the rest of the band to turn down repeatedly when it's not my gig. I'm just a side man.
Not gonna turn down the work. I'd rather suffer as a professional musician than suffer at a desk 9 to 5. :)
Which means I'm using my pickup.

So now I can complain about the pickup!

My experience has been that you have to 'play to the pickup'. If you hit it too hard, bad things happen. If you play too lightly, it's too hot sounding.. picks up too much string noise.
So I have an entire technique of playing devoted just to the friggin pickup I'm forced to use. And based on the board/monitors, etc etc.. it's not even consistent.
Some days it sounds tollerable. Other days, the room is different, who knows what.. and it just sounds terrible to me.

Every night can feel different. And some nights I can't dial in the right amount of force to make it not sound terrible.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2015 16:07:02
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to turnermoran) 
I've never met a flamenco that was too stiff for me but I've played a couple cheap classicals that were a little uncomfortable.

Concerning your pickup situation, that is a pickle. You're not alone though, seems like all the top players are constantly changing the system they use, likely because a pickup system that does a good job replicating tone does not yet exist. You nearly have to be a sound engineer to make it work decently. I'm terrible at engineering, I've had a couple pretty lousy sounding gigs when I was forced to use my LR Baggs Anthem due to feedback issues, user error to blame as much as anything.

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2015 17:01:37
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to turnermoran) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: turnermoran

quote:

Yeah I don't understand why you'd want to compete with drummers. I play without mic for dance classes and have not had anyone complain about being too quiet, but I'd never even try in a live performance situation. Mic up and pull back, why kill yourself in the age of technology....


I was speaking of rumba gigs.. jammed onto a small stage with drum kit, elec bass, etc
So:
mic doesn't work - too feedback prone
volume is loud as hell - can't ask the rest of the band to turn down repeatedly when it's not my gig. I'm just a side man.
Not gonna turn down the work. I'd rather suffer as a professional musician than suffer at a desk 9 to 5. :)
Which means I'm using my pickup.

So now I can complain about the pickup!

My experience has been that you have to 'play to the pickup'. If you hit it too hard, bad things happen. If you play too lightly, it's too hot sounding.. picks up too much string noise.
So I have an entire technique of playing devoted just to the friggin pickup I'm forced to use. And based on the board/monitors, etc etc.. it's not even consistent.
Some days it sounds tollerable. Other days, the room is different, who knows what.. and it just sounds terrible to me.

Every night can feel different. And some nights I can't dial in the right amount of force to make it not sound terrible.


While I admit there is some getting used to playing "flamenco" or rumba with a piezo pickup guitar as the response is so strange at first compared to a microphone, but a lot has to do with set up of your action and hand position. Perhaps the bad sound when playing hard is the fret buzz...I would mimic this by playing very hard over the sound hole vs closer to bridge. I have noticed some players doing this....I can play my guitar quite hard without getting a bad sound, so long as my right hand is in the right spot.

But this goes for any nylon string guitar really, not just piezo guitars. THe real issue is when the sound chain allows for too much midrange "quak" as they say. There are ways to deal with it using eq but it depends on all the factors in the chain of sound.

here is a vid I am using only piezo and the sound (to me) is not so bad as what a lot of guys are getting. Let me know what you think:

http://youtu.be/SC4-uzjyr1w

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2015 17:54:07
 
jg7238

 

Posts: 2869
Joined: May 11 2009
 

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to Leñador) 
quote:

It's gotta depend guitar to guitar too. My three guitars behave totally different.


Agree 100 percent... I tend to pull towards the lower string but when I practice slow I push on the string. If you play staccato the notes will come out more pronounced creating the illusion of more power. You will be surprised with how much sound you can get by exerting minimum amount of force on the strings. In the end, our hands ,(anatomy) are all different so I've always believed to do what feels most comfortable to you as long as you are getting the results desired.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2015 18:34:22
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to Grisha) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha

Well, I am an odd one here. I am basically classically taught by my father and self-taught after that. Never had a flamenco teacher even for a second. Got my hand on videos in my late teens, already with established technique.

When I play I exert a lot of force, but I push the string down instead of pulling towards the lower string. It allows for clean and loud sound, but it does not exactly sound like Paco's picado. I think perhaps pulling more towards the next string gives you a more percussive attack with less force. It creates a bit of buzz and gives you an illusion of more energy.


hmm, I messed around with this for a bit and have to admit, there is no angular difference whether you play straight or bent fingers, nor drive from big or middle knuckle interms of string movement from pluck to release. Apoyando can't even happen at less than 45 deg or so down. Tirando can be sideways or even UP. Too much UP and it snaps. 90 deg down results in NO release. Perhaps different nail lengths will have different results (no nail you can get closer to 90 deg) but I honestly feel it is nominal, and a non issue tonewise.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2015 19:20:46
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

here is a vid I am using only piezo and the sound (to me) is not so bad as what a lot of guys are getting. Let me know what you think:

http://youtu.be/SC4-uzjyr1w


Olé Ricardo!
Holy **** man! extra points for degree of difficulty from the bulgarian judge!
Standing while doing it?!
You're killing it man..

And yes, the sound is totally good imo. When you get towards the lower register (A string) it's a little more apparent that it's a pickup, but only a little. And the trebles sound damn good.
Can you detail your rig? and EQ? And are you just going through a house PA on that recording?

I'm having my best results with:
Beyer Dynamic M201 hyper cardiod dynamic mic into 1 channel of a Tone Bone PZ..
and LR Baggs Anthem Classical into the other channel.
And I mix the signals, heavy on the mic.
Played through a Carlos Pina blanca (Paracho builder).

I'll put this into an Acoustic Image Corus (whose speaker is really starting to drive me crazy; it's very mid heavy and that's the problem area.). Or I'll use the A.I. head and instead run it through a QSC K8.


However, I don't think I'd attempt to pull this off standing, and the majority of gigs I use this rig with, they want to the band to move (or they have me play solo and then move and join the band). And striking/re-setting this rig is time consuming.

Also: yes to the hand position. I think..
I recently noticed the sound when using the lR Baggs alone was the worst in the area I normally play. Moving more toward the sound hole had a better result, but the string flab is distracting for me.

All of this when I'm not trying a DPA 4099 I am borrowing. Which sounds great but has limited applications.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2015 22:27:00
 
Lorenzo714

Posts: 76
Joined: Oct. 8 2013
 

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Ricardo, You are an animal!!! Just like your Maestro!

Awesome playing as always...also was that your beat up Cordoba GK model you talk about? If it is which model and year exactly is it?

_____________________________

Lorenzo Bonc
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp9GaFPV-Ax4mR-ZoGzYmyg
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2015 2:46:04
 
mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011
 

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to turnermoran) 
Well this thread has developed in such a way that I can ask a question I did before..

Which mainstream commercial guitar do you guys consider the best for rumba and "Spanish romantic"? Can you get a good sound like Al Marconi ( I know he plays with a pick) without buying his 9K guitar?

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2015 20:13:05
 
tijeretamiel

 

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012
 

RE: how hard to play, physically? (in reply to mark74) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: mark74

Well this thread has developed in such a way that I can ask a question I did before..

Which mainstream commercial guitar do you guys consider the best for rumba and "Spanish romantic"? Can you get a good sound like Al Marconi ( I know he plays with a pick) without buying his 9K guitar?


Don't forget Jesse Cook, his guitar is near enough 20k and he plays Rumba with a pick as well...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2015 20:22:34
Page:   [1] 2    >   >>
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1] 2    >   >>
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.109375 secs.