Conde'Bridges, Compendium of dimensions

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Conde' Bridges, Compendium of dimensions

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estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

Conde' Bridges, Compendium of dimensions

If you have a Conde' that is good or even not good I'd be interested in knowing the dimensions of the bridge. The purpose is to create a data base of bridge dimensions and Conde's are common enough that many people have them and are enthusiastic about them.

f you have a Conde' and are willing to photograph and measure the bridge and post the data I'd be very thankful for your time and effort. I'd like to get data on a dozen bridges or more from good and especially older Conde's form the 1960's and 1970's.

Below is a list of the dimensions I want have in order to compare proportions, and see recurring patterns of design.
If you need to know how to take the measurements I can explain a few ways and the terms I'm using to describe the parts of the bridge.

Thanks you!

Bridge Dimension Data Sheet

Label / Maker:

Year:

Bridge total length and width:

_______mm Long by _______mm Wide

Height : ______mm Tall at the top of saddle mound ( without saddle)
Height : ______mm Tall at the tie block

If each end of Saddle mound is not equal height - Treble side______ mm Bass side________mm
If each end of tie block is not equal height - Treble side______ mm Bass side________mm

Bass arm is _________mm long, Tie block is ________mm long, Treble arm is ________mm long

Tie block is ________mm wide

Saddle slot is _________mm from the front edge, ________mm wide Saddle Bone

Strings are held exactly ___________mm(bass side) and _________mm (treble side) above the soundboard surface by the saddle.

Bass arm is _________mm tall at the uña, ___________mm at the junction of the tie block area

Treble arm is _______mm tall at the uña, __________mm at the treble side of the tie block.

In addition to these data if possible photograph the bridge from the side to show:

The shape of the bridge arm, it is flat, or highly arched?

The depth of the face of the tie block on the saddle side.

Basic shape of the saddle mound

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2015 14:13:53

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to estebanana)

Honestly, I dont think your study is worth your time and effort.

Its based on the word good (good condes) and besides someone on the www has to decide what is good and bad and you have to trust that.
Taste is different. What is good for you may not be good for me or for Furlanito. Some find that a huge T-bone is good food while others think Tofu and a raw carrot is the answer.

besides, there´s a tendency amongst a good amount of people to believe that what they have is good. Why, because they are exquisite persons and therefor have exquisite taste and exquisite guitars, cars, wifes, houses, whatever.

In order to make it worth something, you´ll have to find what you consider good condes, try them and meassure yourself. thats the way things were done before and it gives some kind of consistancy. It may take many years or a lifetime, but it will be interesting and give you data worth working with.

Or you can can join the happycondeclub and start to believe that all condes are good ones. Its easy you just have to sing every day the same song for an hour or so. Repeat it without stopping. It goes like this It helps if you have a little bell that you can play with at the same time):

Hare hare, hare conde, conde conde, hare hare.
Hare hare, hare conde, conde conde, hare hare.
etc.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2015 7:52:24

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to estebanana)

It sounds as if you already have a theory and you are looking for data to confirm it? That's not a good way to discover anything imo.

And there's another problem. It could be that 'bad' Condes have the same bridges as 'good' Condes, so you should also be seeking data from people who have 'bad' Condes.. Big problem. Nobody is going to say they have a bad Conde.

And what's a 'good' Conde? As Anders says, its more a question of personal taste.

I think the best thing is to experiment with bridges on your own guitars, while doing what the rest of us do; that is just measure every guitar that comes into your shop for repair. Its a slow learning process isn't it? But its part of the enduring fascination of luthiery.

_____________________________

Kevin Richards

http://www.facebook.com/#!/kevin.richards.1048554

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2015 8:55:35

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to estebanana)

I agree with Anders.

I have tried many Condes (very good and very bad ones among those) over the years and the point IMHO is that different hands were involved: different plantillas, different neck relief, different bridge dimensions.
It's a little like Ramirez (or the '90ies Gerundinos) were the brand grants you a certain standard quality and a certain pattern but what ultimately matters is the maker: what I mean is that you should try to identify the real maker more than a particular feature. Often a particular feature is a clou of the maker's hand and this can drive you to a good guitar.

Given that premise, what kind of Conde do you like? the 70ies or 80ies Gravinas and those of Felipe V are different guitars.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2015 10:48:31

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to estebanana)

Well I think it would be quite interesting Mr Faulk. I have a Conde coming down at some point so will let you know either way.

We each have our own methods of aquiring data, I don't think it's fair to put people off from contributing to it just because you don't know what Stephen has in mind.

_____________________________

Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2015 10:49:17

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to estebanana)

Yet, his idea mustn´t be all vain, despite the truisms.

His question appears like aimed at people like Ricardo who had a chance of comparing several Condes.
Even if the "Ricardos" were only presenting a part of a responding number of people, the average measure of reported bridges could be pointing to a useful dimension. Which again could be a nudge to experiment around.

Ruphus

PS:
I was typing while the other Stephen replied much better than I could had said it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2015 10:50:28

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to estebanana)

I want to create a data base of bridge dimensions and Conde's are common enough that many people have them and are enthusiastic about them.

I'm not so much interested in crunching numbers as I am in comparing sizes and proportions. I'm looking for patterns that repeat frequetntly enough to call them characteristic.

If gathering Conde' data works we can moving on to other well known makers. I have a hypothesis about Conde' bridges and I want to see if the bridge dimensions support my hypothesis. If it does then I will have learned useful information that I can use.

We should work on some togetfer instead of just picking each other butts like a room of old gay farts.

NOTE!

Word on the wire is that guitar collector Sheldon Urlich and R.E. Brune' have collaborated on revising and updating the Catalog Raisonne' of the Urlich collection. The new edition will include an expansive data base with all the dimensions of the guitars! And other goodies including a CD.

Release date is sometime in November. If I heard correctly. This is reported to be the definitive work to date on the Spanish guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2015 11:58:48

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

If gathering Conde' data works we can moving on to other well known makers. I have a hypothesis about Conde' bridges and I want to see if the bridge dimensions support my hypothesis. If it does then I will have learned useful information that I can use.

Well, at risk of sounding even more like an old fart, I still say that you should collect data from 'bad' Condes as well as 'good' Condes, otherwise I don't think you'll learn anything useful.

_____________________________

Kevin Richards

http://www.facebook.com/#!/kevin.richards.1048554

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2015 14:48:49

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to estebanana)

All or most good conde's have a low bridge or rather, allow for a low saddle (string 7-8 mm above board). There are many different styles, particular tie block etc. Most have a shallow break angle (that achieve the low set up anyway).

1973: 7 and 1/4" by 1 and 1/16th"
1997 and 2000 felipe V: 7 and 1/16th" by 1 and 1/8th"

good luck

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2015 17:10:36

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to Ricardo)

interesting, we've been making our bridges 7 1/4" by 1 1/8" forever with low break angle and our guitars don't sound like Condes.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2015 22:51:35

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

interesting, we've been making our bridges 7 1/4" by 1 1/8" forever with low break angle and our guitars don't sound like Condes.

Cuz you are using yamaha style...conde is 1/16th skinnier at that length.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2015 4:51:06

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Cuz you are using yamaha style...conde is 1/16th skinnier at that length.

It's a common size used by lots of makers. I don't know about Yamaha; however if they have a better idea I wouldn't hesitate to copy them.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2015 14:24:31

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1675
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to estebanana)

The bridge is undoubtedly the largest soundboard brace. But we all know that at least several design factors contribute to soundboard performance. I use very nearly the same size bridge footprint that John does, and my flamenco bridges are all 0.25" tall at their highest points. It would be surprising and interesting to learn that any Conde guitars depart from this radically.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2015 12:19:48

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to estebanana)

Unfortunately, you usually can't get the most important measurement (IMO): the weight.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2015 23:18:22

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to estebanana)

Sorry I'm not organizing this better, but I have been in bed for five days with 38.2 C fever which, in a few days I'll explain more.

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2015 1:43:34

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to estebanana)

No problem. I was actually interested in the results. I think it hit two problems very quickly which hasn't helped matters.

The biggest issue I see was that you didn't make it very clear which dimensions you wanted. So I guess that's the reason you only have foot print measurements and not things like wing heights, saddle slot depth and position and tie block dimensions too.

Plus the early neh saying probably put a few people off. I would have thought if they weren't interested they would simply not have wasted the effort in posting. After all you a professional and know what you can and can't gain from such a data base.

Also get well soon chap.

_____________________________

Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2015 9:11:42

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to estebanana)

Ney-saying is the mantra with our taliban guitar community.
We would had neglected Torres too. ("What´s that!? Way too round, way too big and ugly. How am I supposed to get that thing into my suitcase?!"

)
Anything unconventional = blasphemy.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2015 10:26:13

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to estebanana)

Thanks for the well wishes. Still in bed, but not feeling like I've been hit in the head several times with a gold brick in a sock. The longest fever I've ever had, and for I think at least a day and a half was nearing 39.4C. It may have been higher, but I was too sick to check. I had mild hallucinations, uncontrollable eidetic images which would hover before my closed eyes and not dissipate until I opened my eyes and then a another would come.

When I get back I will make a list of measurements and some ideas o how to make descriptions. I did say if you want to know which measurements to take to contact me. We can still do this, I am hopeful.

The day I posted this thread was the first day in bed at home and I was getting care, but not bonkers yet. The previous day I had been to my shop, but I lay on my nap cushion form about 7am to 6pm as I could not work steadily. by late afternoon I began to get dizzy. Normally nobody checks on me all day unless I miss dinner at 7pm, but trundled home, and nearly fell down a long flight of metal stairs.

The last thing I had been working on, before the day recuperated in the shop all day, I have been working n bridges for two or three days and these images were fresh in my mind. I had also been studying drawings a photos of many many bridges of all the great known makers. I have a strange thing I don't know if every one can do this, but I can take a photo and in the right state of mind I can work it like a computer program and create it in 3D in my image center and spin and flip it an look inside if it while holding the dimensionality of the object intact.

I spent at least two days with pounding head pressure and a guitar bridge spinning and unfolding and rebuilding itself as an image in my mind. Also because I was not out doors uncontrollable images of my computer screen while online would appear. I would ask a question and sometimes my mind would show the computer screen searching for the answer. Eventually the mind would get tired and let the body rest and there would be a few hours sleep.

Yesterday I felt in my body for the first time in five days and not floating around inside of it unsure of where the seams, edges and contours were. Finally an end to the uncontrollable Fujicolor mind lolling around inside a chilly sleeping bag of skin. That's how I experienced about three days.

My head finally began to focus and I got a great chunk of focus from laughing out loud ( because it no longer hurt to do so) by watching a video of an English newscaster making sport of the Prime Minister diddling the pig. I can't share it because it uses the F word too much.

But it changed the set of images in my head;" Cameron in a 5000 pound tuxedo, with a glass of sherry in one hand, no jobseeker blood, having at a pig with his posh ____. "

I know, I know potentially offensive, but it was funny.

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2015 11:42:00

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to estebanana)

Stephen, it sounds like you really had a serious illness and very high fever that laid you up for quite a few days. Has a physician seen you? It sounds like some tropical malady that occasionally hits people in Southeast Asia and other places. Dengue Fever for example. Has it been diagnosed?

I am glad that you're feeling better. Take it easy on the road to recovery so as not to have a relapse.

Get well soon, amigo.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2015 11:57:06

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to estebanana)

Seems such is not going to stay in tropic / subtropic realms.
Due to climate change, exotic mosquitos are already breeding in Germany. Things like Dengue fever are being expected there too.
-

Sounds like serious illness. Good recovery, Stephen!

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2015 12:12:53

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1675
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to estebanana)

I'm glad the fever seems to be down.

I saw that video of the newscaster last night via Facebook.

I think I have that spacial/mind thing too and that's why I was able to make an accurate copy of a George Nakashima chair from a photo.

My wing thicknesses (max) are 0.125"

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2015 13:43:27

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to estebanana)

Yeah Bill,

It crossed my mind that it could be 'Some Indonesian Junk that's Going round...'
(cheap trick lyrics.) But I also thought Dengue, or whatever odd tropical stuff...not your usual cold fever for sure.

Hospital tomorrow. I may be out a few more days but I don't want this research to get too far away. I can't make to the shop to get my measuring instruments camera and a bridge to show samples of what I want, but I will when I can.

Thanks for the support, I've been in 9 x 10 room on my back for five days and the contact is niceBTW the 'newscaster' Jonathan Pie is a send up artist I've learned, but funny.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2015 14:06:14

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to estebanana)

[Deleted by Admins]

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2015 22:59:35

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Este banana,
Have you instead tried measuring bananas? It might give you just as much insight as measuring bridges! Jejeje
Long time ago there was a thread here where Elias Andersson definitively debunked the notion that bracing alone, or any other component alone, makes the difference between good and bad sound.

T.E Lawrence ( Peter O 'Toole ) said in Lawrence of Arabia "Nothing is written!"
He led an army through the middle of the desert to attack the Turks.

Your logic is weak. In order to study the sum of all parts where better to start than with each part?

To study the bridge in depth is part of a study of the whole system and the way it works together. All I want to do is see the dimensions of a number of Conde' bridges.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 11:28:34

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to estebanana)

(Clear Version for easy printing or cut and paste, then fill in your dimensions.)

Bridge Dimension Data Sheet

Label / Maker:

Year:

Bridge total length and width:

_______mm Long by _______mm Wide

Height : ______mm Tall at the top of saddle mound ( without saddle)
Height : ______mm Tall at the tie block

If each end of Saddle mound is not equal height - Treble side______ mm Bass side________mm
If each end of tie block is not equal height - Treble side______ mm Bass side________mm

Bass arm is _________mm long, Tie block is ________mm long, Treble arm is ________mm long

Tie block is ________mm wide

Saddle slot is _________mm from the front edge, ________mm wide Saddle Bone

Strings are held exactly ___________mm(bass side) and _________mm (treble side) above the soundboard surface by the saddle.

Bass arm is _________mm tall at the uña, ___________mm at the junction of the tie block area

Treble arm is _______mm tall at the uña, __________mm at the treble side of the tie block.

In addition to these data if possible photograph the bridge from the side to show:

The shape of the bridge arm, it is flat, or highly arched?

The depth of the face of the tie block on the saddle side.

Basic shape of the saddle mound

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 12:47:31

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1675
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to estebanana)

I make the tie block the same across its width (bass and treble same) but slanted down towards the valley. When I give the height as 0.25" I am referring to the part that holds the saddle.

What's the "uña (fingernail) ?

Doesn't a "junction" have to consist of more than one thing?

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 14:30:14

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

I make the tie block the same across its width (bass and treble same) but slanted down towards the valley. When I give the height as 0.25" I am referring to the part that holds the saddle.

What's the "uña (fingernail) ?

Doesn't a "junction" have to consist of more than one thing?

Of course how silly I forgot to give space for the saddle mound height so you reminded me and I added that.

The una is the bevel at the end of the bridge arm. I guess because looks like shape of that white arc near the cuticle of your nail.

Junction -where the bridge arms meet the tie block section. That area can get thinner due to scraping out an arch under the bridge to fit the top arch.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 14:39:55

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1675
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to estebanana)

Thanks for clarifying, Estebanana.

I still don't understand why people hollow out under the bridge. I always glue them on without doing that and they curve a little and they're fine.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 14:44:06

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

I still don't understand why people hollow out under the bridge. I always glue them on without doing that and they curve a little and they're fine.

That's because that style works for you! I did a few that way and they worked great.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 14:46:17

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Conde' Bridges, Compendium of di... (in reply to estebanana)

I revised the intent statement in the first post and included the data sheet list of dimensions. Now everything is in the first post and this is more organized.

I hope several people eventually participate the data will be shared with any guitar makers who have an interest.

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 16:29:40