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This duo is amazing, one of the most fresh and new styles nowadays. I absolutely love them! One of the coolest things is Gabriela's right hand technique. Those rasgueados perfomed in the top of the guitar, so rythmical, so insane! What do you think? Do you consider this Flamenco? I'll say "Latin-Heavy-Metal-Flamenco" maybe?
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to JonathanMtz)
Nice duo, not my cup of tea but the put on a good show to huge audiences and are nice people. Absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with flamenco though, to answer your initial question
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to JohnWalshGuitar)
Yeah that's what I thought. What are your thoughts about Gabriela's right hand technique? I find it very amazing, since it took me months to even have half of that clarity and rhythm
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to Leñador)
Yeah, I think that more musicians should start like they did. So that people start paying them attention, then once they've got the attention they can move to something more specific or expressive. I wish more people could understand Flamenco, like the piece Tio Sabas by Paco de Lucia
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to Guest)
Yeah, thank you so much for that. I've been playing for 3 years now, and I sometimes don't understand how one cannot be moved by such beautiful music like flamenco.
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to JonathanMtz)
Agree with comments above. Not my cup of tea. Not even close to flamenco. They have their own little niche, though, and they are good at what they do within that niche.
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to Leñador)
Oh really? That's awesome. Did that change the way you play flamenco? I played Mexican requinto before discovering about flamenco. I think it has influenced the way I play guitar in general.
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to JonathanMtz)
I wish I could say it had affect but it didn't. My background in metal has had pretty much 0 impact on my flamenco playing. I love Los Tres Reyes, a member here jg7238 introduced me to them, jg used to play some requinto and I think credits some of his blazing fast picado to it.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to JonathanMtz)
quote:
ORIGINAL: JonathanMtz
This duo is amazing, one of the most fresh and new styles nowadays. I absolutely love them! One of the coolest things is Gabriela's right hand technique. Those rasgueados perfomed in the top of the guitar, so rythmical, so insane! What do you think? Do you consider this Flamenco? I'll say "Latin-Heavy-Metal-Flamenco" maybe?
Plus, they're Mexican
It is always hard to respond to these types of opinions. On one hand, I don't like to shoot down what people like, this music and style has it's obvious appeal. Further, I totally get where these two in particular are coming from. The frustrating part is the "amazing technique" issue that fans see in them...how can one explain that these guys are extremely low level with technique, making due with a few intermediate level musical abilities the best they can, on the borders of pure cheese...but without sounding condescending?
These guys jumped on an old train that set off long ago in the late 70's when Dimeola Mclaughlin Coryell made a fusion with Paco de Lucia....already an inspiration to rock metal genre with the fast picking harmonic minor stuff, and the aggressive rhythms, in the 80's, some relatively talented immitators inspired by the flamenco fusion idea (namely strunz and farah) finally, after many years of performing underground, found success by adding some latin elements. Gispy kings also hit the big time the same way, except with vocals it might seem like a totally different concept or genre...it IS NOT. It's the same sh it. Rumba. Except Strunz and Tonino etc know real flamenco, as did paco, they chose to do things in a more commercial vein for obvious reasons. Now, Strunz and Tonino have LEGITMATE strumming technique. For Rumba and flamenco, and in case of strunz for latino and andes rhythms too. The fusion of Dimeola is NOT the same thing as Paco did, but that was the point of the FUSION. Using a pick is not easy to get the compas details without serious work.
The scores of immitators don't seem to get that detail about the strumming. I am not going to break it down to specifics, just understand if you KNOW about it, it is obvious. It's in the details of the patterns used and the accents, NOT JUST THE BEAT. Anyway, along came Ottmar and opened the flood gates...ANY failed rock/metal/jazz fusion player wannbe can sound COOLER in the WORLD MUSIC GENRE, if they simply strum on an acoustic guitar and do some fast picking of scales over simple "spanishy" sounding chords. I don't have the full list but someone compiled a "fakemenco" comprehensive study of this "phenomenon". Rodrigo and Gabriela embraced their rock roots, unlike some others, and went ahead with the novel idea of covers. Not terribly original idea...but with the picking technique not coming close to dimeola nor the OVER USED MOROTE ABANICO of mz gabriela anything close to even a basic Gipsy kings ballad...well, they had to do SOMETHING. It's cute, it's extremely watered down, and appeals at the lowest common denominator of the genre. The metal covers certainly grab a different audience, and the inspiration of the female guitarist doing something they think is "different" had set them off from all the other forgotten ones in the genre. I will say mr ben woods have taken the novel metal/flamenco fusion connection to a much more sophisticated and artistic level.
I love paco, of course, and dimeola and Mclaughlin both appeal to me musically. I get the strunz and Farah direction, and at one point I might have seen myself going that road if I had not been more serious and exposed to the deeper parts of flamenco early on...but Strunz and Farah is about as far into the "fakemenco" stuff I can tolerate to go.
Compare any of these guys with old school Paco Cepero playing and singing rumba for fun in 1969? (normally one of the all time best cante accompanists)...THAT is compas señores (At 3:50)...where is that energy and technique in Rod and Gab's music? http://youtu.be/Yjd1ID-OmwI
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to JonathanMtz)
well theres nothing wrong with it .. its commercial for sure .. people who like gypsy kings will like these too . the only damage done is if the great majority think flamenco begins and ends with them .. I dont mind listening to it fora while .. .. would like to get rid of the plectrum though and see what happens to the music then ..
yes its not flamenco but i dont think its meant to be or advertised as .. they have found a market , would be good at parties and the like ... everyone seems to like rumba ..
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to Ricardo)
Rodrigo, thank you for taking the time to comment. I totally understand your point I deeply agree with you. Specially in the Gabriela's overuse of the abanico and that Paco de Lucia's video I had never seen before, really great stuff man!
El Kiko, that's a very good point. I think many people can relate to that. I, like many people I know have started Flamenco with some variation of "rumba." I personally started with the most famous one: Entre dos Aguas.
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to JonathanMtz)
A mi personalmente este tipo de música me parece un horror, todo artificio circense y vacía de emoción, aunque por los visto en países anglosajones arrasa.
Paco de Lucia criticaba duramente este tipo de género pseudo flamenco, en concreto una vez escuche que llego a increpar a Ottmar liebert una vez que se lo cruzo en un aeropuerto llamándole sinvergüenza, pero hay que reconocer que el propio Paco es responsable de su creación, por los espectáculos de variedades que protagonizó en su día con di Meola y el otro gachón Mc noseque.
Eso mas el efecto entre dos aguas creo este subgénero bastardo que tanto daño hace al flamenco usando su marca.
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to JonathanMtz)
I don't like em either hombre but it's the medias fault for the word flemco getting thrown around. They've said in several interviews "We are not flamenco.". Unlike Ottmar who named an album noveo flamenco, que chiste.
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to Leñador)
that's the problem , its not flamenco , they don't say its flamenco .. and they know what flamenco is and isnt .. its the rest of the world that classify it as flamenco , along with those''Spanish stars of the flamenco tradition , the Gypsy Kings..''
remember for a lot of people anything with rumba 'type' rhythm is flamenco ...like as if there is some difference noticeable between Bulerias and Rumba ..
Am..G..F..E...Rumba ritimo .. shout Ole from time to time , that got to be authentic , hasn't it ?
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to JonathanMtz)
I wonder how we got to this point...??? How did something as specific as the word Flamenco begin being thrown around so much?? It's really become a go to buzzword for the uninformed masses. Why don't people just say "Spanish music" or Rumba? How did the word flamenco start getting thrown around for anything Spanishy sounding?? How did so many people become exposed to the word with no exposure to the music?
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
How did the word flamenco start getting thrown around for anything Spanishy sounding?? How did so many people become exposed to the word with no exposure to the music?
Exactly! I was just wondering that myself the other day when our group finished a show and an audience member told me that we comparable to a group that she had seen on tv called the Gypsy Kings. Mind you, she also told me that she had never seen a flamenco show before.
I had to chuckle to myself for two reasons, we're not comparable to the Gypsy Kings, for many reasons and secondly we "do" flamenco they don't. When I tried to explain to her that while we're flattered by the comparison, they do "rumba" style music which is a genre of flamenco and i'm sure they can do flamenco but typically don't in their shows. Not sure she understood the diff but she was certain that our group and the GK's did the same music :) I think once someone hears it on a mass media source, perception is reality. If someone on tv say's is flamenco, I guess it is!
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to JonathanMtz)
quote:
Not sure she understood the diff but she was certain that our group and the GK's did the same music :)
To the uninitiated it's very hard to tell the difference between let's say a tangos vs bulerias.
Just my opinion but if I were to come up to a performer after a show to compliment them and would've gotten a lecture about how I don't know what I'm talking about (I'm sure you were more diplomatic than that) I'd think twice about attending their concerts in the future.
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to JonathanMtz)
I have a feeling it comes from the era of the 40's and 50's. People like Sabicas, Carlos Montoya, Jose Greko and Carmen Amaya and later Paco with the trio achieved a fair amount of commercial success and brought the word itself to peoples attention....... Then it got bastardized from there.....somehow....media maybe?
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to JonathanMtz)
Lolol like when you meet a girl and you say "What kind of music do you like?" And they say "I like everything." WTF am I supposed to do with that??? Have an GD opinion!! Lolol Then you mention the most commercially successful artist you like and they say "hmmmm I've never heard of them/him....."
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
Lolol like when you meet a girl and you say "What kind of music do you like?" And they say "I like everything." WTF am I supposed to do with that??? Have an GD opinion!! Lolol Then you mention the most commercially successful artist you like and they say "hmmmm I've never heard of them/him....."
You can't really mix those worlds. Keep the music where it belongs or the only pussy you'll be getting is the one on your dislexic thumb video.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to sig)
quote:
ORIGINAL: sig
quote:
How did the word flamenco start getting thrown around for anything Spanishy sounding?? How did so many people become exposed to the word with no exposure to the music?
Exactly! I was just wondering that myself the other day when our group finished a show and an audience member told me that we comparable to a group that she had seen on tv called the Gypsy Kings. Mind you, she also told me that she had never seen a flamenco show before.
I had to chuckle to myself for two reasons, we're not comparable to the Gypsy Kings, for many reasons and secondly we "do" flamenco they don't. When I tried to explain to her that while we're flattered by the comparison, they do "rumba" style music which is a genre of flamenco and i'm sure they can do flamenco but typically don't in their shows. Not sure she understood the diff but she was certain that our group and the GK's did the same music :) I think once someone hears it on a mass media source, perception is reality. If someone on tv say's is flamenco, I guess it is!
Well, Gipsy Kings DO play flamenco....so that is why it gets confusing. Obviously "my Way" is not puro flamenco, but they make a point in their live shows to do some tango, fandango, or buleria. They have recorded them...they recorded a Granaina over rumba compas with latin percussion, some tanguillos etc....and finally RUMBA is part of flamenco genre. In Rito y Geografia old guys like Pepe de Matrona and Melchor de Marchena lamented, or at least WARNED against the popularity of Rumba...but they never admit it is NOT flamenco...just that they prefer the "puro" cantes, solea siguiriya etc...so the use of the term "flamenco" is not always so wrong.
The problem is, as we have discussed too much in the past already, guys like Leibert who do a "buleria" or this Gabriela trying to play actual rumba...they are half assing it, in a KNOWING way...and it is a sort of disrespect when they cash in on gigs and fame, to those that put real effort, heart, and aficion into their study and performance of it. Again, they can ride on the "flamenco" label, but Strunz said that they don't like being called flamenco, not because they don't know it or compose seriously in the forms, but because THEY ARE ADMITEDLY NOT GOOD AT IT....
So hope you can see where it goes from there. It is flamenco "yes" in many cases, and the basic problem is the same as within deep aficion as well...is it GOOD flamenco?... is it TASTEFUL?... does it have MERIT?. ..etc.
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Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to JonathanMtz)
I can see how their music appeals to some. To me its more percussion and fast playing with a pick than anything flamenco. I used to like Strunz and Farah and Al Dimeola but now anybody using a pick to play anything flamenco sounding seems absurd. Now George Benson knows how to use a pick.
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Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
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