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RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
Continue working on it and perfecting it using the classical tremolo. My advice is do not use the flamenco tremolo p-iami. Francisco Tarrega composed it with the classical tremolo, and it should be learned and perfected using the classical tremolo...to play Recuerdos using the flamenco tremolo slows it down and throws off the timing."
You have noted the same thing. The flamenco tremolo changes the tempo significantly, and there is no way, nor need there be, to compensate for that.
The great musical genius Glenn Gould once said, "i believe the only excuse we have for being musicians and for making music in any fashion is to make it differently, play it differently, to establish the music's difference ie our own difference."
The classical music community has a collective stick up their butt. They are closed minded and stuffy. They all want to hear things played the same way over and over again. They somehow hypnotize people like yourself into believing that makes sense. I hope that changes someday. And i hope that you can see that what you're saying goes against the nature of music itself.
RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to ToddK)
quote:
The classical music community has a collective stick up their butt. They are closed minded and stuffy. They all want to hear things played the same way over and over again. They somehow hypnotize people like yourself into believing that makes sense. I hope that changes someday. And i hope that you can see that what you're saying goes against the nature of music itself.
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RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to ToddK)
quote:
The great musical genius Glenn Gould once said, "i believe the only excuse we have for being musicians and for making music in any fashion is to make it differently, play it differently, to establish the music's difference is our own difference."
The only excuse for being musicians and for making music in any fashion is to make it differently? I don't buy that as an overarching standard. I've heard music made "differently" that was every bit as good, and sometimes even better, than the original from which it was derived. On the other hand, I've heard music made "differently" that sounded like a pile of "mierda." So I must respectfully disagree with Glenn Gould in that I don't think the sole justification for making music is to make it differently. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
With regard to Recuerdos, TK tried it using the flamenco tremolo and did not like the results. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I, too, worked on Recuerdos using the flamenco tremolo and did not care for the slower tempo. If someone wants to learn Recuerdos using the flamenco tremolo, I would recommend against it because in my experience it throws the timing off, but if he really wants to, I would say go for it. Nevertheless, that is no reason to push for TK or anyone else to do likewise. He's already stated his position. Why push it?
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
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RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to BarkellWH)
Back when my only good guitar was my '67 Ramirez 1a blanca, I played very little classical music, though my first serious musical education was classical.
But I played Recuerdos, and with a flamenco tremolo, thumb rest strokes and all. I could play it as fast or faster than my classical friends. Many of them looked on with a degree of fascination at the piami.
To say the classical world has a stick up its butt may be a slight exaggeration, in my opinion. Maybe it varies from place to place. There's a good bit of what I would call crossover here in Austin. The Austin Classical Guitar Society puts on the occasional flamenco show, Tomatito's last appearance in Austin being a case in point.
When I was a kid in Washington, DC my classical friends looked down their noses at my jazz friends, who returned the favor by looking down their noses at my classical friends. Between my junior and senior years in high school I was the only gringo in a pro mambo band. I could play the high note trumpet parts all night, due to my classical training. Most of the mamberos made fun of the regular jazz guys, saying, "Man, all they do is 1, 2, 3, 4. Where's the clave?"
In Indonesia the Javanese gamelan players deprecate the noisiness of the Balinese gong kebyar players, while the Balinese make fun of the halus pretensions of the Javanese.
Así es la vida....
About compensation: Classical guitars are usually set up with much higher action than flamencos, so when you get up to the higher frets, if you make the string even touch the frets, you are stretching it enough to make it go sharp. Classical luthiers set the bridge back, so that the bridge is further from the 12th fret than the nut is. You can still play out of tune by pushing down too hard, but you don't have to push sideways so much to play in tune. Still, classical guitars that are compensated for nylon strings tend to go sharp with carbon strings, because for a given amount of stretch, carbon strings go sharper than nylons.
Flamencos, with their much lower actions should be compensated much less than classicals, if they are compensated at all.
But as I mentioned, some guitars from famous Spanish makers simply had the bridge in the wrong place during certain periods of production. If you have a high action classical, and have trouble getting it to play in tune up the neck, buy or borrow an accurate, precisely calibrated steel ruler, and measure the distance from the nut to the 12th fret, and from the 12th fret to the saddle. I have measured both classicals and flamencos from famous makers where the saddle was as much as two or three millimeters closer to the 12th fret. No amount of pushing or vibrato would make them play in tune at the 14th fret.
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RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
To say the classical world has a stick up its butt may be a slight exaggeration, in my opinion.
I agree, and I'm certainly no defender of the classical world, anymore than I am a defender of any other genre as opposed to other genres. I think all have their place. But I think what we see is that among musicians (just as in any artistic, musical, or professional pursuit) there are some who look down their noses at genres or modes of performance that fall outside their own sphere or with which, for whatever reason, they disagree.
Regarding Javanese vs. Balinese music and dance, Javanese music is more refined and controlled, almost intellectual. Balinese music, by contrast, is far more dynamic and lively. The same holds true in dance. Javanese dance is more deliberately refined and controlled, while Balinese dance is more lively, very angular, and expressive. That Javanese and Balinese each consider the others' performances inferior to their own simply demonstrates that the phenomenon I mentioned above cuts across national, ethnic, and cultural barriers.
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
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RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to rombsix)
TK, take note. Ramzi will not be satisfied until you agree to learn Recuerdos using the flamenco tremolo. Andale, hombre!
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
TK, take note. Ramzi will not be satisfied until you agree to learn Recuerdos using the flamenco tremolo. Andale, hombre!
Exactly. I cannot do it as well as Orhan, but now we have other attestations that it can be done. If you do well with p-iami, imagine how easy it will feel when you go back to p-ami. This is all just for fun, so why not challenge ourselves a bit? That is how my technique has at times improved... Vamonos!
RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to rombsix)
quote:
quote:
TK, take note. Ramzi will not be satisfied until you agree to learn Recuerdos using the flamenco tremolo. Andale, hombre!
Exactly. I cannot do it as well as Orhan, but now we have other attestations that it can be done. If you do well with p-iami, imagine how easy it will feel when you go back to p-ami. This is all just for fun, so why not challenge ourselves a bit? That is how my technique has at times improved... Vamonos!
Ramzi,
If you wonder whether I can play flamenco tremolo or not fast enough, please watch this youtube video of mine from 0:52 to 1:13. I am not saying, I am an expert, I am implying that I can play it with decent speed
Or this one:
I am telling you, I played the flamenco tremolo and I DID NOT LIKE IT on this piece even though I love the technic itself. I don't like Orhan's version either. I just don't think the piece sounds beautiful with flamenco tremolo. It is a personal taste.
Here is what I got from this thread:
1) I have to tune my guitar before I play something (duh ). Ricardo's explanation made me go back and test my guitar to make sure that it is a "tuning issue" and not "intonation".
2) Some said that I had to smooth some areas where it should be played "cleaner"
as to your point to go back and learn the piece note by note, well that's how it is usually done.
If you could pinpoint the area of "error" I would love to go back and correct it but giving me a range of 40 second in a piece that plays in 2:30 to 3:00 minutes in total, and telling me "there are errors in that range", is not a help my friend
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From: Washington, DC
RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to rombsix)
quote:
If you do well with p-iami, imagine how easy it will feel when you go back to p-ami.
The interesting (or odd) thing about it in my case is I find the flamenco tremolo (p-iami) easier to control and to maintain a dead-on steady, shimmering melody than with the classical tremolo (p-ami). I learned flamenco tremolo first and developed it to the point where it was dead-on steady. With the classical tremolo it still sounds sort of like a gallop. I probably could improve my classical tremolo if I worked on it, but since I stick almost entirely with flamenco, I don't have the inspiration or enthusiasm for it.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
About compensation: Classical guitars are usually set up with much higher action than flamencos, so when you get up to the higher frets, if you make the string even touch the frets, you are stretching it enough to make it go sharp. Classical luthiers set the bridge back, so that the bridge is further from the 12th fret than the nut is. You can still play out of tune by pushing down too hard, but you don't have to push sideways so much to play in tune. Still, classical guitars that are compensated for nylon strings tend to go sharp with carbon strings, because for a given amount of stretch, carbon strings go sharper than nylons.
Flamencos, with their much lower actions should be compensated much less than classicals, if they are compensated at all.
But as I mentioned, some guitars from famous Spanish makers simply had the bridge in the wrong place during certain periods of production. If you have a high action classical, and have trouble getting it to play in tune up the neck, buy or borrow an accurate, precisely calibrated steel ruler, and measure the distance from the nut to the 12th fret, and from the 12th fret to the saddle. I have measured both classicals and flamencos from famous makers where the saddle was as much as two or three millimeters closer to the 12th fret. No amount of pushing or vibrato would make them play in tune at the 14th fret.
RNJ
Thank you Richard. Well, this guitar is Miguel Rodriguez and as you know, his negras were all build as classical with high saddles at the bridge. I have replaced the original saddle with a lower saddle to play flamenco on it. I love the sound, it is very spanish.
After Ricardo's comment on intonation, I tuned the guitar with a "Tuner" and started playing every note on each string up to 12th fret to make sure, each note plays in tune (with the tuner). And it did, so, I concluded that I did not tune the guitar well when I played the recuerdos that day.
Here is the original guitar with original settings:
RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)
quote:
I tuned the guitar with a "Tuner" and started playing every note on each string up to 12th fret to make sure, each note plays in tune (with the tuner).
RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)
quote:
Ramzi,
If you wonder whether I can play flamenco tremolo or not fast enough, please watch this youtube video of mine from 0:52 to 1:13. I am not saying, I am an expert, I am implying that I can play it with decent speed
I am telling you, I played the flamenco tremolo and I DID NOT LIKE IT on this piece even though I love the technic itself. I don't like Orhan's version either. I just don't think the piece sounds beautiful with flamenco tremolo. It is a personal taste.
as to your point to go back and learn the piece note by note, well that's how it is usually done.
If you could pinpoint the area of "error" I would love to go back and correct it but giving me a range of 40 second in a piece that plays in 2:30 to 3:00 minutes in total, and telling me "there are errors in that range", is not a help my friend
Oh man, TK...
Seriously I'm a nice person, and I am just trying to be friendly and help you. I wonder if this has anything to do with our discussion before about tremolo...
Would it be too much of a coincidence not to consider that lingering memory of the above as fuel for some resistance to even wanting to hear, let alone read carefully, what I said? Let's leave the psychiatric mumbo-jumbo aside and get down to business.
I still find it hard to understand why you do not like this piece with flamenco tremolo. The only reason you cited so far is that it slows down the piece, however, you pointed out that you are pretty good at flamenco tremolo being done fast (even though those videos you linked me to are 95% on the first string, so that does not count especially with Recuerdos which has a lot of B string work). So if you COULD play flamenco tremolo just as fast as classical tremolo, then would you still not like the piece being played with flamenco tremolo? Humor me and clarify this point, because I seriously don't see any difference remaining between flamenco tremolo and classical tremolo if they could both be played at the same tempo. (of course, 5 notes can never be played as fast as 4 notes taking into account really high tempos, but hey, we're not trying to rock this piece out at 250 BPM now are we?)
In my mind, it would make sense for someone who is a flamenco guitarist such as yourself to potentially try to adapt flamenco techniques to classical pieces just to make them more interesting... sort of like what Todd referenced.
Again, if you read carefully, you will notice that I pointed out two areas, 2:02 and 2:40. I did not say from 2:02 until 2:40. And I said both those areas are repeats of the same passage, and you mess it up on both occasions, which I felt should be enough clarity for you to understand where you played incorrectly. I guess not, though. I was able to tell just from hearing what you did and having the correct original tune in my head, but it sounds like you have not been able to make that distinction, and I cannot hold that against you. Of course, I am not trying to say I am better than you because I was able to hear that. Perhaps it was just an attention lapse on your part. So here is the score with highlights to show you where you need to correct what you played. I hope now you can see what I mean.
Again, I am genuinely trying to engage in friendly discussion. I have no business coming here to attack you. I don't even know you! I'm sure that if we sat together, we would enjoy a great jamming session and you would hopefully let me sample your awesome guitars that probably cost more than my entire net worth. Online communication is not governed by the same rules as face-to-face communication, and it creates a lot of situations as the above which in reality are not actual situations. I apologize if I came across to you as vile, but I am really just trying to be useful to this foro and to you by what I am contributing here, and I am sincerely just curious in my questions and encouragement.
Here is where you mess up. I've slowed down your video.
I've highlighted the measure in the score in red outline. For some reason, you play FIVE of those E notes on the second fret of the fourth string instead of playing just three. The second repetition, you even throw in a low A (open fifth) instead of one of erroneous E's that you did in the first go around. Thereby, this leads to you playing notes "incorrectly" (because don't really exist), and therefore the rhythm gets screwed. That is what I was referencing...
I hope this makes sense now, and again, if you would like to chat on FB, I more than ready to do so to clear up any air that might need clearing up still. This is all a byproduct of online communication.
Cheers!
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RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to rombsix)
quote:
quote: TK, take note. Ramzi will not be satisfied until you agree to learn Recuerdos using the flamenco tremolo. Andale, hombre!
Exactly. I cannot do it as well as Orhan, but now we have other attestations that it can be done.
But no one said it could not be done, Ramzi. Of course one can perform Recuerdos using the flamenco tremolo. The question is: Does one use the classical tremolo or the flamenco tremolo, and which is to one's taste? To cite Orhan's flamenco version, and to refer to Richard's post in which he stated, "I could play it as fast or faster than my classical friends. Many of them looked on with a degree of fascination at the piami," does not alter the fact that performing Recuerdos with a flamenco tremolo alters the timing and slows it down internally, as opposed to the classical tremolo. The key word is "internally."
One may play the flamenco tremolo "iami" strokes as fast or faster than than one's friend plays the classical "ami" strokes. And I have no doubt Richard wowed his friends. The flamenco tremolo is unique, and I suspect that many classical guitarists who know nothing of flamenco are unaware of it and are fascinated when they first see it performed.
But the flamenco tremolo does alter the internal timing of the piece. It cannot be otherwise, since with p-iami the "p" stroke is occurring after every four "iami" strokes, whereas The classical tremolo has a "p" stroke for every three "ami" strokes. To an ear that prefers Recuerdos played with a classical tremolo, there is a noticeable difference when it is played with a flamenco tremolo. It does not matter if one plays the piece faster using the flamenco tremolo than another plays it using the classical tremolo. Internally, the timing will be thrown off due to the extra "i" stroke in each sequence p-iami.
Whether one prefers one or the other is, of course, a matter of taste. When I am asked which I prefer, I unhesitatingly answer "classical." Obviously you are pressing for "flamenco." But regardless which version one prefers, there is a difference between the two.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to BarkellWH)
There will be a difference between using 4 instead of 5 but that's kind of obvious and desirable, no?
It will only throw the timing off if you can't play subdivisions in 5 but in essence they are as difficult as playing 4's or 3's. You'll be thrown off by pretty much anything you can't do properly.
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RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to Sr. Martins)
quote:
It will only throw the timing off if you can't play subdivisions in 5 but in essence they are as difficult as playing 4's or 3's.
By the flamenco p-iami sequence "throwing the timing off" internally I mean it will be altered from that which one hears in the classical p-ami sequence. Each will be internally consistent within its own sequence of strokes, be it flamenco p-iami or classical p-ami, but the two versions will sound different to the external listener. It is not a question of executing one or the other properly or improperly. Both will sound different even though each is executed properly.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
By the flamenco p-iami sequence "throwing the timing off" internally I mean it will be altered from that which one hears in the classical p-ami sequence. Each will be internally consistent within its own sequence of strokes, be it flamenco p-iami or classical p-ami, but the two versions will sound different to the external listener. It is not a question of executing one or the other properly or improperly. Both will sound different even though each is executed properly.
I will let Sr. Martins carry on or let go of this aspect of the discussion moving forward, because I have nothing further to add. Vamonos!
RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to ToddK)
Here's Adam del Monte's version.
When I tried playing RDLA with flamenco tremolo, quite a few years back, I developed focal hand dystonia. I was pushing the tempo and created a lot of tension from my right forearm and wrist, which spread to the a finger. My fault for not being patient and practice slowly. Anyway, took 2-3 years to correct the dystonia problem. Taught me a hard lesson. Always go slow and be relaxed without any tension in the hand, wrist forearm etc. I believe my problem was also caused by the fact thast I had originally learned RDLA in classical study, where the guitar rested on the left leg. When I tried to play it w/piami, I was resting the guitar on the right leg. This is what I believe caused the tension along with my own impatience.
My preference is for the classical tremolo on this piece.
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RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to Sr. Martins)
quote:
Go ahead, there are only so many ways I can say the same thing.
One interesting phenomenon is the enclosed feedback loop, in which someone has only his own idea (regardless the number of ways it is stated) as a point of reference which is recirculated in the enclosed loop, magnifying its validity to the individual in question.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
One interesting phenomenon is the enclosed feedback loop, in which someone has only his own idea as a point of reference which is recirculated in the enclosed loop, magnifying its validity to the individual in question.
Yeah, once I felt the "deja vu" on my last answer I immediately recognized I was inside your feedback loop.
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RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)
TK, I think everyone agrees that the topic, with its various permutations, has been exhausted. I, for one, just want to emphasize that I think your version of Recuerdos is coming along just fine. Keep up the good work, and if there are any bumps to smooth out I'm sure you will do it without lectures and comments from us. Please post a video when you feel you have it down pat. Would love to see and hear the finished product.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
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RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to BarkellWH)
...I have long since reformed, and now try to play Recuerdos with classical tremolo-- slowly, slowly trying to get back some technique.
Here's something for us all to shoot for, looks like it's even played on a Miguel Rodriguez:
She's playing pami, but at this speed it's sometimes hard to tell whether it's pami or piami. To my ear, the treble notes sort of merge into a continuous melody. Listening closely you can tell the difference, but played well I still think it works either way.
I was looking for Berta Rojas's version of Recuerdos, but I couldn't find it. Here's a different tremolo piece by her.
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RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
I was looking for Berta Rojas's version of Recuerdos, but I couldn't find it. Here's a different tremolo piece by her.
Richard,
Interesting that you provide a video of Berta Rojas. I know her slightly. When she first came to Washington many years ago, my flamenco guitar guru and good friend Paco de Malaga gave her her first job teaching classical guitar. Paco owned the Guitar Gallery on Connecticut Avenue near Cleveland Park, and he had a stable of guitar teachers. Paco, of course, taught flamenco. there was an Argentine named Julio (with the nickname "Koko") who taught general Latin music, and others as well. Berta Rojas taught classical. She then went on her own and eventually became a professor of music at George Washington University in DC.
I am a member of a diplomatic club in Washington, DC, and each year, in addition to various speakers on topics of interest to diplomats (both retired and active) and international affairs specialists, we have about four music programs. A couple of years ago, we invited Berta Rojas to perform at our club. She put on a marvelous program. She performed Recuerdos, as well as a couple of pieces by Augustin Barrios. I invited Paco de Malaga and his wife Ana Martinez to be my guests at the program. During the program, Berta herself introduced Paco as the person who first gave her a job when she came to the States. It was a very poignant moment, and after the program Paco, Ana, and I went "backstage" to have a nice reunion and chat with Berta.
Berta Rojas is probably the most famous musical export from Paraguay since Augustin Barrios. A wonderful performer and a great musical ambassador.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
TK, I think everyone agrees that the topic, with its various permutations, has been exhausted. I, for one, just want to emphasize that I think your version of Recuerdos is coming along just fine. Keep up the good work, and if there are any bumps to smooth out I'm sure you will do it without lectures and comments from us. Please post a video when you feel you have it down pat. Would love to see and hear the finished product.
Agreed. thanks ALL for your input.
Thank you Ramzi for the slowed down version. I will get back to that in a few days.
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RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
I was looking for Berta Rojas's version of Recuerdos, but I couldn't find it. Here's a different tremolo piece by her.
Richard,
Interesting that you provide a video of Berta Rojas. I know her slightly. When she first came to Washington many years ago, my flamenco guitar guru and good friend Paco de Malaga gave her her first job teaching classical guitar. Paco owned the Guitar Gallery on Connecticut Avenue near Cleveland Park, and he had a stable of guitar teachers. Paco, of course, taught flamenco. there was an Argentine named Julio (with the nickname "Koko") who taught general Latin music, and others as well. Berta Rojas taught classical. She then went on her own and eventually became a professor of music at George Washington University in DC.
I am a member of a diplomatic club in Washington, DC, and each year, in addition to various speakers on topics of interest to diplomats (both retired and active) and international affairs specialists, we have about four music programs. A couple of years ago, we invited Berta Rojas to perform at our club. She put on a marvelous program. She performed Recuerdos, as well as a couple of pieces by Augustin Barrios. I invited Paco de Malaga and his wife Ana Martinez to be my guests at the program. During the program, Berta herself introduced Paco as the person who first gave her a job when she came to the States. It was a very poignant moment, and after the program Paco, Ana, and I went "backstage" to have a nice reunion and chat with Berta.
Berta Rojas is probably the most famous musical export from Paraguay since Augustin Barrios. A wonderful performer and a great musical ambassador.
Bill
Another great female guitarist from South America (Columbia) is Irene Gomez. She play a lot of Barrios and Villalobos. I don't listen to classical guitar much but I love her playing.
_____________________________
Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
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). Ricardo's explanation made me go back and test my guitar to make sure that it is a "tuning issue" and not "intonation". 
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