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Looking for guitar plans
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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 RE: Looking for guitar plans (in reply to Cervantes)
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quote:
I never found enough info about the doming...
The thing is that Spanish guitar building culture is not like that. The day you guys on this lutherie forum understands and especially accepts this, you´ll have learnt a very important lesson. More than 100 plans can tell you.
Things were being changed a lot. Always looking for something. A plan is at its best like a freezing point of a builder.
The biggest problem is that in other building cultures, they believe that the real world is what is drawn in the plans. That a Barbero guitar is like this plan, Reyes the same, Santos, you name it. All these builders had very different approaches to how a guitar should be made over the years. If you make a plan over a guitar that I made 7 - 8 years ago and claim that my guitars are so, then you are wrong. You will be able to claim that my guitars were like that at that moment. They are not like that anymore.
In general, if you can build a flamenco guitar that with strings on has a doming of around 3mm, no hollowing towards the edge, just a slight dishing in front of the bridge and a slight lift behind the bridge. If you can do so and have a good pulsation, then you´ve done very well.
BUT to do that is not a matter of a specific dome on the soundboard, its a matter of blending and mixing things the right way to get to that goal and this cannot be drawn or written in a plan. Besides, there are multiple ways of reaching this goal. As an example, I dont dome the soundboard when I build. I glue the little sticks on a flat surface. Nothing radical in that. I´m not the first to do so. But there are other ways as well.
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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Apr. 13 2015 7:34:09
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Looking for guitar plans (in reply to Cervantes)
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I think plans are good for those who don't have a half dozen old Santos guitars sitting around for them to study.
I've come to the conclusion that plans are great for starting out and that the best plans are the ones drawn from guitars of the Mid 20th century.
The Hauser, Santos, Barbero, Manuel Ramirez, plans of Spanish instruments before 1950's are better than the drawings of the modern instruments in my opinion. These show the fundamentals and are not confusing. And if followed render a nice guitar as a starting point. They give a good foundation to build on.
The reason is that if you don't have a good instrument to lift data from, the plans have excellent data. You can't just become an intuitive builder who has all the dimensions memorized right from the beginning. And I posit the best way to learn the ways to get the fan brace, bridge, top thickness, arching method and all the details is to build the same model a couple times.
When you want to make a complicated souffle' you consult a cookbook. After you master the souffle', you don't need to use the cookbook any more.
Just try making a souffle' by trial and error. It will be more difficult, so get an old cookbook.
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It's really all about getting through the first one because that teaches you which questions to ask next. If you can formulate good questions from what your first work shows you, you will get better help from those who have more time in.
It's not critical to think "outside the plan" until later. When you do begin to break away from plans it will just be a natural growth based on your hands on experience. It's been stressed that building from plans is not the traditional way, but today we don't go through and apprentice system generally. Perhaps only 10% of todays builders get that privileged inside education, for those who don't have that rare advantage there is no shame from working from plans. And beginning with a plan will not stunt your growth when you go onto your own direction later.
One more advantage of making a good first few guitars with a plan of an old vetted model or famous instrument, it shows you have taken time to study a master maker. That tells the owner of an old guitar collection that you are worthy of having hands on time with their collection. If you come on and say "I made my own model from day one", they might think you are a bit cocky and be less apt to grant you access. Collectors love to see humility in the face of tradition and they respond with generous attention to you. Access to important old guitars can be crucial to your development.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Apr. 14 2015 1:36:57
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: Looking for guitar plans (in reply to Cervantes)
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Stephen, I agree that its a good idea to start with a plan. And best to start with one that is pretty mainstream and that rules out the 51 Barbero and the Reyes plan, because they are both weirdstream.
When saying Mainstream, I mean something close to Torres/Hauser when it comes to bracing layout and way of working braces. The Hauser plan makes a very nice flamenco if built light with a flamenco setup and a light bridge.
But no plan have all the details and some are confusing. Besidest that, most new builders who come to this forum has the idea that the plans out there represent a guitarbuilders work and thats not true. The plans are of 1 guitar and nothing more. The 2 plans that have been discussed the most here, (the 51 Barbero and the Reyes) are imho NOT showing the way those builders made all their guitars. Both made very differnt models.
The question about the dome was very good, because the plans dont say and thats because Spanish guitarbuilding culture is not like that. There are many different ways of making the right dome and what works for me may not work for you. Besides, most Spanish makers will have used different ways of making their dome in order to find what works for them.
The steel string guitar world is different and the plans are different. Thats because the steelstring guitar is more or less an american thing. So the plans are made to American culture, thinking and doing and they are more accurate and have more info about everything, including a thing like doming the plates. Besides, they are mostly based on factory standard guitars like Martin and Gibson.
Problems occur when you try to understand Spanish guitar building culture wearing American guitar building culture glasses.  Then things get confusing because the difference is big. And thats what happens a LOT here.
Spanish guitars have to be understood in a different way than American guitars and visa versa.
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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Apr. 14 2015 7:06:02
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