Writing my first buleria

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ZaidRockso

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec. 20 2013

Writing my first buleria

Right so i need some help since i'm relatively new to this, so i know the basic compas for bulerias, i know a few falsetas, and i'm trying to make my own version of a song into a buleria , so improvising rather than writing. Now my question is, i start the progression at 12, and that's fine. i'm doing it in 3's, so the progression goes through once then repeats. When playing it , the first go around i end at " and 5 " after 4 compases and a half. and start the repeated progression at 6 and finish it at " and 10 " also after 4 compases and a half , is this a wrong thing to do? not finishing a full compas before restarting it? and also i'm talking traditionally.

Thanks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 14:35:23

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Sabes tocar a un bailaor o un cantaor?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 15:28:34

ZaidRockso

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec. 20 2013

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to ZaidRockso)

i don't know why you assumed i speak spanish, i don't :p but i understood since it's fairly similar to portuguese. And no, i've never accompanied a dancer or a singer.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 16:16:47

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to ZaidRockso)

I think what Morante is getting at is that you may be trying to run before you can walk. There is an unteachable, element of instinct that comes with long term accompaniment experience. You just know when something is right or not. I've been accompanying(mostly dance) for a few years now and I STILL lack this quality but I'm good enough to FEEL how it exists.

Would you be able to rephrase your question? I don't quite understand it......

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 17:22:20

Guest

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Mar. 26 2015 17:23:20

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 17:23:01

athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 9 2015 13:31:02

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 17:38:47

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to athrane77)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jof

Just think of it in sixes and everything's fine.

But if you think it in sixes and sevens then that's exactly where you'll get too.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_sixes_and_sevens

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2015 2:48:21

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to Dudnote)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dudnote

quote:

ORIGINAL: jof

Just think of it in sixes and everything's fine.

But if you think it in sixes and sevens then that's exactly where you'll get too.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_sixes_and_sevens

It wasn't their stongest song by a long shot, but the lyrics say it all.

Hope you post bits of your bulerias as it takes form.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2015 3:09:19

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Oh my god Annihilator!!! \m/ lol Imperiled eyes!! lol great player, always had no so great singers.....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2015 4:45:31

ZaidRockso

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec. 20 2013

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Basically, in a nutshell, is it wrong to end a progression at 5 (instead of 10) and start another variant of the same progression at 6 (instead of 12) and end the new progression at 10?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2015 6:19:38

athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 9 2015 13:30:43

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2015 7:23:32

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to ZaidRockso)

If you drop the first half of a compas your usual accent at 10 becomes an accent on 4 and you restart everything a 6. But accents can get shifted for effect, but if done too much the rhythmic structure is lost.

Here's a good exercise you can try when not with your guitar. There are 3 basic foot tap patterns used when playing bulerias in 6s
x--x--
x-x-x-
-xx-xx
try tapping one of those with your foot and clap a different one, if you never tried before it might feel tricky. Keep changing which foot or hand or fingers do which rhythem, when you can switch easily between these whilst still feeling one of the other patterns you'll be well on your way.

I've no idea if that is what some prople here call "polyrhythem"??

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2015 10:25:33

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to Leñador)

Ha ha! I thought that might stir a response out of you Lenador.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2015 10:49:47

athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 9 2015 13:30:25

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2015 11:32:27

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to athrane77)

I thought that having someone stomping 2's and a palmero clapping in 3's was enough to stack a polyrhythm. If you try to feel bulerias in 4 (not easy) it sounds like a mega:tuplet

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2015 11:35:14

athrane77

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 9 2015 13:29:53

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2015 11:40:03

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to athrane77)

I thought that having smaller cycles with different accentuations would also constitute polyrhythms because it also gives that sort of "shifting" effect.. although not for long because it restarts every 12 beats. Micro-poly maybe?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2015 11:45:26

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

Oh my god Annihilator!!! \m/ lol Imperiled eyes!! lol great player, always had no so great singers.....

I would tend to agree, but maybe it is more the style of the songs....the bridge section only reveals this guy had some pipes:
http://youtu.be/pTYHYglem-M

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2015 19:27:38

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to Ricardo)

Great post Ricardo, I feel 14 all over again! I discoverred this band when a mate put Alice in Hell on the B side of a Ride The Lightning casette ~ I still have that casette somwhere.
I think they changed singer for the Nevermind album.
That operatic bridge section reminds me of the german band Helloween.

How about an Alice in Hell buleria challenge?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2015 20:20:39

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Alison hell bulerias challenge!! I'm in!! lol I used to know a good chunk of that song......

All this tech talk about what constitutes being poly-rhythmic and Ricardo responds to the Annihilator post lol Keepin it real Ricardo!

\m/

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2015 20:29:50

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to Dudnote)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dudnote

Great post Ricardo, I feel 14 all over again! I discoverred this band when a mate put Alice in Hell on the B side of a Ride The Lightning casette ~ I still have that casette somwhere.
I think they changed singer for the Nevermind album.
That operatic bridge section reminds me of the german band Helloween.

How about an Alice in Hell buleria challenge?

I used to set my VCR to record headbanger's ball on halloween night as my friends and me were out and about.... yep helloween was good stuff too.
http://youtu.be/yOAl0enE7kI

but it is more like priest->maiden->queensryche

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2015 6:25:50

Mason

Posts: 12
Joined: Nov. 4 2014
From: Texas

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to ZaidRockso)

If you stack the x--x-- and x-x-x- rhythms, it becomes a 2:3 polyrhythm. A 7/8 to a 4/4 stack would be a polymeter. Because 7/8 has an extra eighth note, the bars don't add up. Polyrhythms are in the same meter. 2:3 just doesn't feel weird because it is so common in every genre of music.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2015 12:17:43

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to Mason)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mason

If you stack the x--x-- and x-x-x- rhythms, it becomes a 2:3 polyrhythm. A 7/8 to a 4/4 stack would be a polymeter. Because 7/8 has an extra eighth note, the bars don't add up. Polyrhythms are in the same meter. 2:3 just doesn't feel weird because it is so common in every genre of music.

It can stack up but the polyrhythm takes seven bars of four four (or eight bars of 7/8) to resolve.

But that is a different kind of polyrhythm. It seems like maybe different people are working from different but equally valid ideas of what a polyrhythm. No need to argue over which is most valid, they all are. Best to get to know all three if this kind of thing interests you.

Your are right to say it would be a weird one. Because it takes more than a bar to resolve it also might be very hard to hear unless you have studied it. But subconsciously your brain will hear that there is something going on and if the playing is good it will hook you.
If an eight bar were added in 4/4 then that would be similar to what actually happens with uneven groupings in African music (ie a bell pattern in 12/8 with a repeating motif in 5/8 and a little something to make up the rhythm.....wait that's a fourth kind right there I bet there are others). A real simple one happens in Latin music and Turkish music where you have 3/3/2 (or 3/8+3/8+1/4 if your prefer) or 3+2+3 or any other combination over a steady 2/2 beat. You can call the first one there second line, if you swing the eights you get the Bo Diddley effect. These groupings litter all pop music and Tangos and Rhumba and just about everything else. If you get them sweet as a nut people call it groove or aire, or maybe they'll just smile.

Like this (I am not sure what he is doing and it ain't got anything to do with 7/8 or flamenco, but he sure knows)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2015 14:08:03

Mason

Posts: 12
Joined: Nov. 4 2014
From: Texas

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to ZaidRockso)

He's just playing a 4:3 polyrhythm.

From wiki:
Polyrhythm is sometimes referred to as "measure preserving polymeter,". The beat varies and the measure stays constant. For example, in a 4:3 polyrhythm, one part plays 4/4 while the other plays 3/4, but the 3/4 beats are stretched so that three beats of 3/4 are played in the same time as four beats of 4/4

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2015 14:13:08

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to Mason)

If you prefer Mason. I don't like to get too hung up on narrow definitions, and I never rely on Wiki, useful as it is. That 'sometimes' might be important.

Julian says in his notes that 5/4 is involved. Maybe you can let him know he is wrong.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2015 14:18:51

Mason

Posts: 12
Joined: Nov. 4 2014
From: Texas

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to ZaidRockso)

yeah at 1:08 he starts 5 against 4

Actually I take that back at first he does 5 against 4 and then 4 against 5.
Sorry for helping derail the thread, I just think this kind of stuff is fun.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2015 14:22:35

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to Mason)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mason

yeah at 1:08 he starts 5 against 4

Actually I take that back at first he does 5 against 4 and then 4 against 5.
Sorry for helping derail the thread, I just think this kind of stuff is fun.

Yeah me too.
A conversation is a journey, too often I get out the other end unmoved.

I am David, by the way nice to meet you.

And my apologies to Zaid too if the thread is moving away from the info he needs. Although I won't apologise for introducing anyone to Julian Lage, 'the happiest guitarist on earth'.

D.
D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2015 15:02:28

Mason

Posts: 12
Joined: Nov. 4 2014
From: Texas

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Nice to meet you too, David.

Have you ever heard Conlon Nancarrow?
It can get a bit silly, but fun if you are in the mood.
http://conlonnancarrow.org/symposium/papers/callender/irrational.html

I've never heard Lage before he has a cool vibe.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2015 15:36:45

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to Mason)

I only know what I heard in a TV series hosted by Simon Rattle. Rattle lumped him in with Ligeti and had a lot of interesting comparisons with among others Art Tatum, the piano rolls that he played bore this comparison out surprisingly well. Blast from the past, thanks for the nostalgia.

I see from your profile that Mason is your forename, pleased to meet you too Mason.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2015 16:29:26

withinity

Posts: 180
Joined: Sep. 17 2013

RE: Writing my first buleria (in reply to ZaidRockso)

I'm a bit confused about Bulerias in 6's, have been looking up old medio compas threads lately but since its now being brought up in a recent thread I might aswel ask and hopefully someone can clarify some stuff.

Can you play the first 6 beats or the second half of 12 beats (6-11) any which way when playing Bulerias in 6's ?

For example you play beats 12-5 , three times changing the chords or whatever then in the 4th cycle of compas of 6's you switch over to beats 6-11 and do some continuous rasguado as resolution ? Or is it always just the first 6 beats.

Also , people say they only play in 6's in jerez but is that a strict rule with no exceptions , because sometimes in recordings it sounds like they do play 12 beat compas aswel , usually as little interludes between the cante.

I feel like i'm missing something.