Mr Tambourine Man

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Mr Tambourine Man

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guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

Mr Tambourine Man

FUN STUFF FOR PEOPLE WHO LIKE SINGING AN STRUMMING

F G C F

Here are two ways of colouring it.

Change F to Dm

Dm G C F

Thats nice.

Now here is another way, change G for Dm/G. And to get to that Dm play A7 after the F.

F/A7overE,Dm/G7,C,F

Now we could go on like this all day.

But the point of these two is to see that the ii V (Dm to G7) is actually functioning in two completely different ways. When you see changes written out it can be hard to see the underlying function. But it is there at the top of this post. If you know the tune you know this, if you just get the extended chord changes you might not .

I have come to the conclusion that tinkering with simple harmony in real tunes on the guitar and singing along beats the sh1t of reading books when it comes to making sense of how harmony works.

And it is great fun (as anyone who just played through it will know). There are more ways of elegantly harmonising the first four bars of Mr Tambourine man than grains of sand on earth. But only one tune.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 14:05:32

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Is this the kind of bombastic revelation you've been throwing at me?

Seriously, all the "latest discovery" stuff you've been giving us is nothing new.

What I see here:

Dm is the relative minor of F, very common substitution.

Inserting A7 is just a simple secondary dominant. It will work as such if it's a V7 of the target chord and also if you make a ii V7 to get to the target chord.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 14:15:48

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to Sr. Martins)

I never said it was anything new. It is however easy to miss.

Rui it might be more interesting to give us a different reharmonisation that you like rather than arguing about what the point is constantly.

I like this one,it feels real nice when I sing along

Dm Gbm7b5, Bm7b5 Bb7b5, Am Am/G, F

Kinda hard to see that it is in C but it is.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 14:23:15

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

Rui it might be more interesting to give us a different reharmonisation that you like rather than arguing about what the point is constantly.

I think I don't need to remind you about the "way you put things" and what you implied when you contacted me via pm.

It would be very different if you just stated "I've been fooling around with reharmonization concepts, this is cool" but that's not really what you did.

By the way, it's the second time I say "I don't get this" and you interpret it in a very twisted way while mocking me and other people in the process. Iam not digging this.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 14:32:57

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Ok here is another.

F Em,Dm Dbdim,C C/Bb,F/A Ab6

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 14:36:13

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

It would be very different if you just stated "I've been fooling around with reharmonization concepts, this is cool" but that's not really what you did.

I am sorry you are not digging it. But the reharmonisation thing is fun and something you are interested in so I thought you might like to join in.

I actually said early on in the discussion with Miguel ( I am quoting from the other thread).

'Have you tried 'reverse engineering' a progression ? What I mean is take a standard tune and harmonise it as simply as possible using just I, IV and V. Then look at how the original arranger elaborated on this.'

That is my stated objective to learn how to reverse engineer a progression. So that if I look at something that seems complicated I can get to where the real simple thing is. And this is how Jazz standards work for the most part.

By reverse engineering I mean 'find the very very simple basis that the reharmonisations are just elaborations on. The reverse engineering part is much easier if you mess around with harmonising trying to find uses for the devices you have learned. And what you find is that some classic difficult harmony just becomes childsplay. And that is when music becomes fun and not just an intellectual exercise. And the thing that ties everything together is the original tune.

Because of copyright theory books don't use real tunes and everything becomes arbitrary.

D.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 14:44:34

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to guitarbuddha)

That's what I've been telling you all the time.

The core of the harmonic function in tonality is just Tonic, subdominant and dominant, all the chords built from the diatonic scale (there are 7 chords) will fall into these three categories (in this musical context, which is functional harmony on a basic common practice framework).

Many people hear the whole thing as those 3 functions and think of the other 4 chords as slightly different flavours. The 7th degree for instance, that's just a rootless V7 chord.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 14:50:43

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Here is another reharmonisation.

Dm A7Csharp,F6/C Bdim, Abmaj Bb6aug11, F/A Eb6

Still in C.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 14:51:56

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to guitarbuddha)

I am glad we are getting to the same page Rui.

Any nice harmonisations occur to you for Mr Tambourine man ?

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 14:56:26

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Ok here is one with a chormatic ascending bass line.

F Gbdim,Am/G E7/Gsharp,Am Bb, F

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 15:05:57

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

Because of copyright theory books don't use real tunes and everything becomes arbitrary.

That's what wrecks several jazz tutors, for instance Mickey Baker’s.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 15:09:51

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to guitarbuddha)

I don't think of it the same way as you do.

I reharmonize based only on substitute chords and I see the "extended chords" as still being those basic triads with more notes around just for effect. Even when you have a 5 note chord there is still a function (if it's all diatonic) and it might not even be related to the root of that chord, that's why I don't rely on chord symbols.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 15:10:52

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

quote:

Because of copyright theory books don't use real tunes and everything becomes arbitrary.

That's what wrecks several jazz tutors, for instance Mickey Baker’s.

Yeah good call.

He does introduce the idea of reharmonisation and his ideas are good but because he won't let you know what tune he has in mind it is hard to get emotionally connected to the concepts and although they might be understood intelectually by a reader they don't get practiced because there is no tune to put them into context and so the deep understanding doesn't follow.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 15:13:01

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

I don't think of it the same way as you do.

I reharmonize based only on substitute chords and I see the "extended chords" as still being those basic triads with more notes around just for effect. Even when you have a 5 note chord there is still a function (if it's all diatonic) and it might not even be related to the root of that chord, that's why I don't rely on chord symbols.

Great Rui, that is how I see it too.

Whenever I see fancy changes I try and find the simple ones they are hiding. All the changes I have written out today are really just IV, V, I, IV.

The tricky part is getting back to the IV V I stuff when the given progressions mask them. Then if I am soloing I can move between any and all possible reharmonisations to choose lines.

Maybe another three chord tune occurs to you that we could look at ?

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 15:18:10

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to guitarbuddha)

If it's jazz and they're all 7th chords, you get pretty much all the info your ear needs just by thirds and sevenths.

In my opinion nothing is masked, it's part of the intention. Trying to revert to 145 will work just by design, not because there was any intention of making things more complex than simple root position 145.

Nevertheless it's a good exercise, just not something I would consider as being "masked" like you say.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 15:29:30

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Here is a Latin one

F/A G7add13/Ab, Dm7/A Abdim,C(6/9)overG F7(13)over Gb, F Bbdim

It is in C.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 15:29:45

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

If it's jazz and they're all 7th chords, you get pretty much all the info your ear needs just by thirds and sevenths.

Not at all times. For a cadence to a minor key to be prepared properly you need an altered tone with a seventh to guide the improvisers ear, unless the dominant is prepared with a m7b5 in which case your ear knows already. Even then if aproaching the tonic (or relative minor) I still like to include a flat five like it did a few posts ago.

'Dm Gbm7b5, Bm7b5 Bb7b5, Am Am/G, F'
----------------------HERE--------------

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 15:36:15

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to guitarbuddha)

If there's an alteration it's not diatonic at that point (Harmonic minor isn't diatonic) so it's not about the plain chords taken out of the 7 degrees anymore.

edit: What I mean is that the third and seventh are enough to tell where you are within the the diatonic framework. I you want to go outside (harmonic minor for instance), then you'll obviously have to state it melodically or harmonically... or else you would have to sing it in the lyrics like "Iam on this chord right now and it isn't dominant la la la... but you'll have to take my word for it that the next one I play is supposed to be a strong tonic chord! lalala!"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 15:54:58

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to guitarbuddha)

GuitarBuddha... Play it !!

_____________________________

gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 17:54:43

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to gj Michelob)

GB, I'm really appreciating these analyses you're putting up. Jazz is new ground to me and I've not got much further than learning drop2 and drop3 inversions and going through the cycle of fourths in Autumn Leaves. How would you guys analyse that one then with your stripped down approach. Also cuurently working Over The Rainbow, will post the chord diagram I'm using later if you're interested.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 18:34:32

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Sr. Martins - You're a second year in university right?

quote:

'Have you tried 'reverse engineering' a progression ? What I mean is take a standard tune and harmonise it as simply as possible using just I, IV and V. Then look at how the original arranger elaborated on this.'

Schenker baby! Yeah!

GB - thanks for these contributions. I like how you keep your ego in check in the face of the naysayers.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 20:54:02

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to chester)

quote:

Sr. Martins - You're a second year in university right?

What?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 20:57:08

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to Dudnote)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dudnote

GB, I'm really appreciating these analyses you're putting up. Jazz is new ground to me and I've not got much further than learning drop2 and drop3 inversions and going through the cycle of fourths in Autumn Leaves. How would you guys analyse that one then with your stripped down approach. Also cuurently working Over The Rainbow, will post the chord diagram I'm using later if you're interested.

Autumn Leaves: the whole thing is Am - B7 - Em (IV - V - I). GB posted something similar in http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=273975

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 20:59:23

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

quote:

Sr. Martins - You're a second year in university right?

What?

Are.you.a.student.in.a.university.who.is.attending.his.second.year?

We call those sophomores in the US.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 21:02:13

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to chester)

No, Iam not.

What I don't understand is the reason behind your question.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 21:04:35

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Usually, after students get past their first year they feel as if they learned so much and are now enlightened. They assume that because the knowledge is new to them, it must be new to everyone else. It's only when they reach the third year that they understand that what they learned in the first year is just an intro.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 21:09:28

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to chester)

quote:

Usually, after students get past their first year they feel as if they learned so much and are now enlightened. They assume that because the knowledge is new to them, it must be new to everyone else. It's only when they reach the third year that they understand that what they learned in the first year is just an intro.

*facepalm*

Thanks for your contribution and wisdom.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 21:10:59

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to Dudnote)

Over the Rainbow is a really beautiful tune, a true classic.

For a terrific example of how to pare down a song that normally has loads of alterations it is hard to beat this.

He is playing in the standard key of C so if you work out his three chord version and then compare it with your real book version you will be onto a great start. You can note how he changes the melody too (like at the start he sings a major third not an octave).

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 22:09:19

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

quote:

Usually, after students get past their first year they feel as if they learned so much and are now enlightened. They assume that because the knowledge is new to them, it must be new to everyone else. It's only when they reach the third year that they understand that what they learned in the first year is just an intro.

*facepalm*

Thanks for your contribution and wisdom.

The question is where are YOUR contributions? Telling other people they're wrong doesn't count.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 22:09:27

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Mr Tambourine Man (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob

GuitarBuddha... Play it !!

You know Mitch I actually recorded the first few and I am ashamed to report two things.

One I can't sing the tune in F without falsetto which sounds appalling.
Two I sound just as bad in every other key and in my natural voice. Even by my normal low upload strandards it would be a unkind to expect anyone to listen to my singing.

I wish I was joking.

I did enjoy the effort thoroughly though thanks.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2015 22:14:19