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RE: Following the leader
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: Following the leader (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
And while I am at it, there is the IV-iv-I mark was on about too.
While you are at what exactly ?
IV iv I is a route from four to one which brings out the chromatic line (in C) AAbG. In a blues you go a step further C C7 F Fm and that extends the line to Bb A Ab G. I've talked about it here before (with Tele on All of Me)
You like fusion I don't, fine. You think it is harder than earlier styles, I don't. John Coltrane could play older styles convincingly and that brought depth to his elaborations. Not the case with fusion cats, well not on guitar at least.
D.
At making a point. That was that you seem to advocate the common denominator practice of relating all chords to one tonal center as a "better" option or approach, in general, and I am simply pointing out that it is simply a higher level concept to approach each chord as separate from each other. It is not about "fusion" or anything so specific, it is just an improvisation concept. Once you get into doing it, regardless if you want or need to see the relation of chords or not, you don't really "revert" because it is "better". Coltrane, as your example, sure played simple forms long after his "sheets of sound" phase, but I am sure he wasn't thinking like "oh, let me just forget everything I understand and revert to mary had a little lamb for this chart"....of course not. It's like spicy food...you don't just suddenly go back to liking bland food again one day and claim something you used to eat every day is just too spicy for you and you can't handle it. It doesn't mean you can no longer enjoy bland food either.
Anyway, Mark2 is on about more than just the occurance (he's possibly thinking of different tune) of a minor iv cadence and that one little chromatic signature...he is pointing at the way we all learn devices that deal with harmonic situations when improvising...and that is where we get into the more sophisticated single chord approach too. It is like falsetas...small phrases we learn to get from chord A to B or whatever typical thing pops up in charts, so we can keep on moving and exploring with no fears of getting "lost" or making distasteful note choices etc. Some people feel afraid to go that direction, like true freedom to explore gets constrained, but it is not true at all. It is still about exploration, but with more secure footing that is all.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Mar. 25 2015 3:44:29
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guitarbuddha
Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
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RE: Following the leader (in reply to Mark2)
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OK Mark I have had another look at that section. Here is what is really happening (two bars between commas) in the final cadence of All The Things You Are.
Db,Db,Eb7,Ab (which is IV IV V I)
Now shift the second bar of Db to the II7 chord (all structural two chords are standing in for the IV in standard harmonhy. That gives you
Db,F7,Eb7,Ab
Then split the F7 into a minor dominant pair
Db,Cm/F7,Eb7,Ab
That is where the Cm comes from. In the real book the Cm is apprached by Gb13, but this is a non structural chord and as such is pretty arbitrary. Another approach is from a half step above which would give you your Dbm
Db/Dm,Cm/F7,Eb7,Ab
Now to give a more jazz feel there are another couple of things happening in the published changes. Firstly the Eb7 is broken into Bbm7/Eb7. Next the F7 is switched for a Bdim which allows a chromatic bass line onto the Bbm7.
This gives you
DbMaj/Dm7,Cm/Bdim,Bbm7/Eb7,Ab
The better soloists know that this is really.
IV II7 V I (which I mentioned a few posts ago as one of the most common structures)
And fascinatingly so do the audience (although they would never articulate this), the only people who don't know are studying harmony out of context.
Good soloists can produce a range of interesting colours by making and be extremely free but hitting the important marks. People who try and spell out each chord independently and of context tend ; not to sound very interesting, don't characterise the tune at all, missed the point of jazz standard harmony, get lost, sound naive and contrived, hide behind lots of notes, don't produce any real tension, play repeating riffy figures etc etc.
You can go to the moon if you want with your scale choices but they should be inflected by the tunes deep structure and a good knowledge of the language. That way you can shape tension and release convincingly.
A well schooled soloist might play over completely different changes with the band playing the written ones, the result is to my ears much much more convincing than pointilistic and self deluding avant-gardism which has more to do with rock than jazz and far less to do with Ali Akbar Khan than it likes to think.
D.
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Date Mar. 25 2015 13:29:59
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Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Following the leader (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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David maybe it would be helpful for me to outline the last 12 bars of the tune as they appear in my real book (one bar between commas)
Fmin7, Bbmin7, Eb7, Abmaj7, Dbmaj7, Dbmin7, Abmaj7, E7#9, Bbmin7, Eb7,Abmaj7, G7 C7,
Ricardo was correct in his assumption that I was writing about focusing on the Dbmaj7 to Dbmin7 to develop reliable ways to solo over that sequence regardless of the tune. The article Miguel linked to that I'm referring to also focuses on this concept-that working out how to deal with various two chord moves that are common in jazz will help you negotiate these sequences when they occur. It seems to be working for me. Is it the best approach? I don't know, I suppose if I had continued my jazz studies over the last thirty years instead of being sucked into flamenco, I'd have a lot more certainty.
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Date Mar. 25 2015 15:18:43
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guitarbuddha
Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
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RE: Following the leader (in reply to Mark2)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mark2
David maybe it would be helpful for me to outline the last 12 bars of the tune as they appear in my real book (one bar between commas)
Fmin7, Bbmin7, Eb7, Abmaj7, Dbmaj7, Dbmin7, Abmaj7, E7#9, Bbmin7, Eb7,Abmaj7, G7 C7,
Ricardo was correct in his assumption that I was writing about focusing on the Dbmaj7 to Dbmin7 to develop reliable ways to solo over that sequence regardless of the tune.
That second Ab pretty much has to be in first inversion as I have never heard a recording where that tag sounds resolved and the bass line is most unsatisfactory going to Ab , a first inversion Ab prepared in this way doesn't really function as a I chord and is misleading. What would sound nice instead of Ab-E7~9 would be an Ab triad in first inversion with the root held as a pedal going to a Bb7(add13)with a B bass note (THIS MIGHT LOOK COMPLICATED BUT REALLY IT IS A SWING STAPLE AND HAS BEEN AROUND SINCE THE SHEIK OF ARABY, the nomenclature is tricky (that chord,with all its potential extensions, is actually only really present in the diminished scale) and books often get it wrong looks like yours has assumed that the bass note is the fifth when it is actually the flat ninth).
Did you play through the elaborations I articulated in my last post Mark? I thought they were pretty clear, but maybe you aren't going to play through them and we are just going to talk in circles, but that is OK because I feel I have learned a little more about the tune which I do like and want to play more.
As I said before there extended changes are largely arbitrary but the meta changes aren't.
I am not aware of any difficulty in getting from a major chord to a minor whilst soloing but if someone wants to work on it in isolation fine that's, I find it happens enough in blues and bluegrass TUNES that it is amply covered working on tunes.
I personally would choose to work on that particular change WITH the knowledge that the Db of the Db Dbm pair is a IV and that the next chord is not structural ( I dont find it useful to work 'regardless of the tune' ), working without the knowledge is less interesting to me and to most listeners when the music is tonal, as All the Things You Are most certainly is.
D.
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Date Mar. 25 2015 16:10:08
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Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Following the leader (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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Interesting post, and I will play through your examples. I admit I haven't been as concerned as you with the function of chords in a standard as much as "do I sound good playing over them?". I did study music in college for a couple of years but really have forgotten more than I remember. I have studied privately with many teachers including a few professional jazz players, and those lessons formed the bulk of my musical education. As a practical matter, most focused on execution as opposed to theory. As far as difficulty playing over a major to a minor chord, it's obviously not rocket science, but it's equally obvious some people sound way better than others when doing it. Hence the practice.
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mark2
David maybe it would be helpful for me to outline the last 12 bars of the tune as they appear in my real book (one bar between commas)
Fmin7, Bbmin7, Eb7, Abmaj7, Dbmaj7, Dbmin7, Abmaj7, E7#9, Bbmin7, Eb7,Abmaj7, G7 C7,
Ricardo was correct in his assumption that I was writing about focusing on the Dbmaj7 to Dbmin7 to develop reliable ways to solo over that sequence regardless of the tune.
That second Ab pretty much has to be in first inversion as I have never heard a recording where that tag sounds resolved and the bass line is most unsatisfactory going to Ab , a first inversion Ab prepared in this way doesn't really function as a I chord and is misleading. What would sound nice instead of Ab-E7~9 would be an Ab triad in first inversion with the root held as a pedal going to a Bb7(add13)with a B bass note (THIS MIGHT LOOK COMPLICATED BUT REALLY IT IS A SWING STAPLE AND HAS BEEN AROUND SINCE THE SHEIK OF ARABY, the nomenclature is trick and books often get it wrong looks like yours has assumed that the bass note is the fifth when it is actually the flat ninth).
Did you play through the elaborations I articulated in my last post Mark? I thought they were pretty clear, but maybe you aren't going to play through them and we are just going to talk in circles, but that is OK because I feel I have learned a little more about the tune which I do like and want to play more.
As I said before there extended changes are largely arbitrary but the meta changes aren't.
I am not aware of any difficulty in getting from a major chord to a minor whilst soloing but if someone wants to work on it in isolation fine that's, I find it happens enough in blues and bluegrass TUNES that it is amply covered working on tunes.
I personally would choose to work on that particular change WITH the knowledge that the Db of the Db Dbm pair is a IV and that the next chord is not structural ( I dont find it useful to work 'regardless of the tune' ), working without the knowledge is less interesting to me and to most listeners when the music is tonal, as All the Things You Are most certainly is.
D.
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Mar. 25 2015 19:53:23
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Following the leader (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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quote:
Good soloists can produce a range of interesting colours by making and be extremely free but hitting the important marks. People who try and spell out each chord independently and of context tend ; not to sound very interesting, don't characterise the tune at all, missed the point of jazz standard harmony, get lost, sound naive and contrived, hide....
well, that's nonsense. You are entitled to your opinion of course, but there is a condradiction in your first sentence and the rest of what you wrote... "hitting important marks" and "try to spell out each chord independently" are actually not at odds with each other as concepts. I think you need let go of your prejudices regarding what you THINK as "contrived" vs a bigger picture of an entire chart. I was gonna get into your roman numeral things too but we can save it for specific examples in the future.
Mark2 chart has two chords (quite simply) substituted for what most other charts have (Abmaj7 for a Cm7, and an E7#9 for a Bdim7). While a simple issue in the big picture, you want to say it's no good, never seen it done that way etc. At the end of the day the point is more about how to deal with the chart at hand, not whether a chart is correct or not....in terms of improvising or reading or stepping in to sub a gig. For guitar players...especially with flamenco background like us, I would first transpose the chart to a guitaristic key (all the thing you are capo 1 for example, so we have Eminor and Bminor for the bulk) to get a better picture of what we are dealing with in terms of key relationships etc. That will go for any jazz standard IMO. From there what works as substitution chords/voicing becomes super obvious. Improvisation will be about your falsetas concept (granaina moving to taranta for example here)...and so on.
But for jazz readers...taking a chart chord by chord is FAR more efficient and effective despite it being much harder to learn. But if a student thinks it's not going to even result in nice melodic improvisation, then how can he proceed to get to that level?
Anyway, here is my "flamenco" chart for that tune
Capo 1
Em7-Am7-D7-Gmaj7-F#7-Bmaj7 (all granaina/Em rumba stuff till last chord resolve)
Bm7-Em7-A7-Dmaj7-Gmaj7-C#7-F#maj7 (all taranta/ chick corea Spain stuff till last chord)
G#m7-C#7-F#maj7-//....ok not really flamenco sounding but it's only ii-V-I for gosh sakes. Personally I would sneak in the open B string to the voicing of the chords as I see fit.
Fm7-Bb7-Ebmaj7-B7+(just a normal flamenco B7 with G held up top suspending from the Ebmaj7 before it)...again not flamenco per say but it is again a simple ii-V-I using first position Barre till the turn around.
Ending:
Em7-Am7-D7-Gmaj7-Cmaj7-Cm7-Bm7(or Mark2's Gmaj7 or the type of flamenco Bm with the Gstring open works marvelously as both)-A#dim7 [or Taranta chord F# tonic works...or the inversion at 5th fret such that if you sneak in the D# on the 5th string you have again Mark2's version of a #9 chord 6(6)567X]
Again all granaina/Em rumba typical stuff...Cm not weird if you look at as D# in the main scale/key vs C dorian which is more typical...but the direction goes to the taranta change so it works to keep thinking B spanish phrygian, both work.
Am7-D7-Gmaj7-F#7/B7 turnaround...the end.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Mar. 26 2015 4:54:47
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