Following the leader

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Off Topic >>

Page: [1] 2 3 > >>

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

Following the leader

I am playing with a quintet next month, and am bringing along a couple guys I haven't played with before. I asked the bassist if he wanted me to send him any kinds of charts or chords and he said, he would just follow the leader. I take this to mean he will just play by ear.

For myself, to learn something by ear can be a fairly laborious project, certainly nothing I could do on the spot. I am playing a wedding this weekend, for example, and the bride wants me to play a couple pop songs. It was a simple thing to go to Youtube and pick out the chords and copy solo guitar arrangements. I will practice them lightly the next few days and be ready to go. Probably I will sketch out the chords just for security's sake.

So, is there any kind of standard progression or method to get from the bare minimum level I have to just being able to follow the leader without any kind of prep?

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ

Arizona Wedding Music Guitar

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2015 14:58:26

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

So, is there any kind of standard progression or method to get from the bare minimum level I have to just being able to follow the leader without any kind of prep?

Usually this has to do with makes up the idiom of a certain genre. If your aural skills are acceptable there won't be much guesswork involved if you know the genre.

This won't apply to complex composed songs, only for "standard" type stuff. Probably your bass player wouldn't be able to wing it through a Dream Theater song he never heard before unless he could predict the future.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2015 16:07:56

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

My wife and I used to play with a bassist who was the same way. One time we saw him sit in with a jazz group he’d never even met before (their usual bassist had flaked out for some reason), and he never put a foot wrong all evening.

It seems to be just experience, wide repertoire and flexibility. No shortcuts.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2015 16:09:03

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Learn the classic progressions for a standard you really like from the record. Check with a real book and note any simplifications or errors you made.

Play it in all twelve keys in open position (that is to say twelve fingerings) it will be a struggle but you will get a real sense of what it really means to be in a key.

Pick another tune and do the same. After a while you will have picked up a lot of vocabularly. It's not gonna happen overnight.

If you don't transpose you won't have to think and so you won't.

Other things play along with the radio, usually it is quite easy to pick up the tune but sometimes the fingering will feel unfamiliar and it takes a little while to know what key you are in, practice working this out as establising the key quickly while continuing to play is much better than flailing around or giving in.

Same with the bass line, most pro players get real good at this and as long as the line keeps moving it is a bit easier than finding four note voicings which is pretty much what is expected from the guitar.

Anyway transpose, transpose,transpose,transpose.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2015 22:01:16

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Thanks for the responses guys; it's about what I thought. In summary, it seems to be a lot of experience within the chord progressions and conventions of the particular genre. A lot of working by ear and working through the patterns by transposing them to all keys.

The things I am working on are mostly Latin standards, which can be simple I IV V type things or, on the other end, bossa novas with more elaborated progressions and jazz chords. I really enjoy how Jobim structures his tunes, lots of common tones or descending basslines driving the progressions.

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ

Arizona Wedding Music Guitar

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2015 4:34:02

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Hey Miguel. I hope you don't mind I thought I would chip in a bit more as I struggle with 'harmonising on the fly' much more than I would like to.

Have you tried 'reverse engineering' a progression ? What I mean is take a standard tune and harmonise it as simply as possible using just I, IV and V. Then look at how the original arranger elaborated on this.

Most standards tunes are when you look at them pretty much diatonic to the home key ,give or take a few chromatic approach tones. Yet if you look at the harmony there seem to be lots of modulations. So given that the tune really doesn't actually modulate what is happening ? Mostly the apparent modulations are just elaborations on real simple I IV V stuff.

Like this, suppose all that is needed for the melody to be supported is two bars on one a bar on four and then back to one

I, I, IV, I

now decide that you are gonna hit vi (relative minor) for the second bar for variety

I,iv,IV,I

then you introduce the secondary dominant to get to iv

I III7, vi ,IV,I

but now the progression seems lopsided because the rate of chord change is uneven so you precede the IV with its dominant -I7-so you get this

I III7,vi I7,IV ,I

Now there is a hollow spot in the third and fourth bar so on the second half of the bar you might change the bass note on IV to the V ( in the key of F that would be Bb/C) and in the fourth bar you add a turnaround on the dominant so you get.

I III7, vi I7a,IV IV/V, I V7

In the key of F (and including a stepwise bass line) this would be

F A7/E, Dm F7/C, Bb / C11sus, F6 C7

That is that is the opening of 'I Wish I Knew How It Feels to be Free'.

It seems like a lot and it is but what you want to do aurally is focus on the I IV and V functions and become more aware of the routes that can be taken between them. Learn some of these elaborations like 'chord licks' through the cycle of fifths and your ear will start to make connections on the fretboard and eventually it will start to become intuitive.

Here is another one that comes up A LOT in latin tunes.

Four bar minor blues (I am gonna abandon numerals here and present it in Am)

Dm,Am,E7,Am

Now you introduce a minor dominant pair at the start (Dm/G7) and substitute the relative major for Am (C)

this gives you

Dm/G7,C,E7,Am

then you break down the E7 to Bm7b5/E7b9

Dm/G7,C,Bm7b5/E7,Am

Like the first progression there are now two hollow spots. So you take the CMaj and run through to Fmaj and at the end Am to A7 (to better prepare the Dm).

so you get this

Dm/G7,Cmaj/Fmaj,Dm7b5/E7b9,Am6 A7b9

It seems like a lot but really it is just a different way of playing the classic four bar minor blues i,iv,V,i.

Also it is important to note that the last progression (Dm/G7,Cmaj/Fmaj,Dm7b5/E7b9,Am6 A7b9) looks like it is based on the cycle of fifths and in a way I suppose that it is. But it can be much more empowering to realise that it is also just i,iv and V with a few bells and whistles. And this is real important to a lot of improvised music. If the chords are simple then you play as if they were complex and if they are complex you play as if they were simple and the results in both cases are surprisingly sophisticated and compelling.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2015 22:18:31

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

D, damn good lesson there, man! I am going to have to get my guitar and mess with this tomorrow, I am hurting my head trying to follow this mentally after two weddings today.

On one of the weddings I had to learn tunes, "Wouldn't it be nice" by the Beach Boys and "Can't Help Falling in Love" as sung by Elvis. The Beach Boys song was surprisingly complex and I actually don't even understand how it relates. Seemed to modulate from Ab to E to Fm and back to E. However, it was pretty easy to learn and play it by memory. "Can't Help" is very simple and the main melody is based on a descending bassline, all simple chords. I stole the Beach Boys arrangement from some guy on Youtube and the Elvis song took only a little longer than hearing it; still, that's a far cry from sitting in and not missing a beat.

What little harmony chops I have is in classical pieces, so the jazz thing is new to me. I tend to look at the root movement and see so much fifth and fourth moves, secondary dominant or circle of V or IV stuff. I suspected that the underlying basis of the tunes was extremely simple, the basic functions merely elaborated by more or less conventional and idiomatic means. I guess if I hit this stuff, I will pick them up sooner or later.

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ

Arizona Wedding Music Guitar

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2015 3:19:23

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Now there is a coincidence !!!!!!

'Wouldn't it be Nice 'on the youtube recording I just listened to is also in F and similar in structure as the first example above.

I,I,IV,V

And it sounds great if you use the elaboration discussed above.

F A7/E, Dm F7/C, Bb

as far as there but you need to spend twice as much time on the IV to V move. So I tried this IV VI7 ,ii V. The way that works is that the V chord is broken down to a minor dominant pair (C7 becomes Gm-C7) and the G minor is prepared with it's own dominant (D7).

That gives you for the third and fourth bar

Bb D7,Gm C7

You can do this for most songs which follow this format. (a good example of ripping off this Beach Boys tunes is Shania Twayne's 'Looks Like we Made It' in which the good parts of the tune were preserved and the music theatre style harmonic rambling was ditched).

Love Me Tender is a Great Tune to busk through in a load of keys whilst singing (you'll want to do that in private if your voice is anything like mine).

D.

(Lots of Beach boys tunes have real interesting harmonies and are well worth studying but the 'development' sections of this one don't seem intrinsic to the melody. Maybe if I were to listen to it several times the penny would drop and I would get the bigger picture but mostly it seems to ramble to my ears right now),

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2015 12:36:49

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Okay, I went through the elaborations. I have always thought the circle of Vs to be just, well, circle of Vs, but I do like the way you have analyzed it. Certainly the more valid ways to look at it, the more ideas that can come and the firmer the whole structure will be in my mind. One question, you have put an Am6... is that just a color tone? Conventional? How does that come about?

I am laughing at the idea of playing that dinky Beach Boys song with the chords you put. It is cool, I'm just imagining the folks who hired me at the wedding, looking over at me while I am playing this jazzed up version during the recessional. It would come across as a musical joke, I'm thinking! But it is cool. :)

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ

Arizona Wedding Music Guitar

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2015 16:44:30

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Hi Miguel. Am7 is a homonym for C6, Am6 is not. So it tends to sound more minor.
Also Am7 can be part of a dominant pair (Am7/D7). I don't find the sound of a minor seventh very satisfactory as a minor tonic except in American style blues.

I am glad you enjoyed playing through those changes. If you try and elaborate a few simple chord progressions (or more usefully the songs that go with them) in this style then you put yourself in the driver seat and it gets much easier to extract deep (I IV V) structure from jazz tunes, even on the hoof. Even better it gives you just a few structural points to aim for if you are soloing and want to get away from waffling in a general key style noodling.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2015 18:57:03

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Following the leader (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Thank you, I will be playing around with this in the future. Have you played the Jobim bossas by any chance?

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ

Arizona Wedding Music Guitar

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2015 14:04:26

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Some of them.

I would strongly recommend the Nelson Faria book on Brazilian guitar.

http://www.amazon.ca/Brazilian-Guitar-Book-Nelson-Faria/dp/1883217024

in case you don't already own it.

Which ones are you working on ? I've looked at a few. Some are standard and some are much more sophisticated than they seem at first glance.

Lots of them (major and minor) do this

I, II7alt, ii, Valt

or i, II7alt, iim7b5, V

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2015 15:04:50

Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Get another bass player-one who is willing to look over the charts and who is too embarrassed to play clams.
How is he going to determine the freakin root? A good guitarist could fake a gig like that a lot easier than a bass player. Even real book tunes can be played with completely different harmonies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

I am playing with a quintet next month, and am bringing along a couple guys I haven't played with before. I asked the bassist if he wanted me to send him any kinds of charts or chords and he said, he would just follow the leader. I take this to mean he will just play by ear.

For myself, to learn something by ear can be a fairly laborious project, certainly nothing I could do on the spot. I am playing a wedding this weekend, for example, and the bride wants me to play a couple pop songs. It was a simple thing to go to Youtube and pick out the chords and copy solo guitar arrangements. I will practice them lightly the next few days and be ready to go. Probably I will sketch out the chords just for security's sake.

So, is there any kind of standard progression or method to get from the bare minimum level I have to just being able to follow the leader without any kind of prep?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2015 15:48:33

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

D,
thanks for the recommendation. The tunes I play are: Girl from you know where, Insensatez, Corcovado, Manha do Carnaval, A Man and a Woman (not Jobim); sometimes I play Chega de Saudade, Desafinado, and One Night Samba, but I've let those go and forget how to play them!

Mark,
yeah, I don't really know, I just work here. :) That guy actually took about a week and several mumbling phone calls to get finally turn down the gig, since he failed to get out of his steady restaurant gig. I don't know what took so long to ask his employer.

By the way, this website seems to have some very cool articles:

http://jazzadvice.com/6-common-chord-relationships-other-than-ii-v-i/

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ

Arizona Wedding Music Guitar

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2015 17:27:35

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Yeah, those articles are OK. Lots I would disagree with though. Primarily his analyses are chord to chord. It is pretty hard to stay aware of the big picture when you analyze chord to chord. If you can get into the habit of relating everything to the home key whenever it is reasonable (and of your selections it is only unreasonable in 'The Girl from Ipanema') then you will start to get a feeling of stability with the key sense the solid ground under you feet. Chord to chord thinking always stays 'seat of the pants' and I personally do not enjoy the effect this has on my musical awareness.

The thing to do is to learn the devices that are in the specific pieces you are studying and do them in lots of keys, after that forgetting gets kinda difficult and you should start to feel your sense of what it means to really be 'in a key' growing.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2015 22:19:31

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Chords have been important for me, a guy who started out wailing on pentatonics with absolutely no concept of why or even listening to the changes! I very much prefer to be hitting chord tones and playing off them. I think I agree with Carol Kaye, who says that scale players don't get invited back! (just joking :) One of the articles from that website said you should try to have 10 licks for each situation, which seems a good goal and at least something to build to. In honor of that advice, I just practiced the G#m-F# lick in all 12 keys from Agua Marina, the start of that Phrygian cadence lick that everyone plays when they want to sound "Spanishy".

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ

Arizona Wedding Music Guitar

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2015 15:55:36

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

In honor of that advice, I just practiced the G#m-F# lick in all 12 keys from Agua Marina, the start of that Phrygian cadence lick that everyone plays when they want to sound "Spanishy".

That's exactly the kind of practice that I find meaningful.

It took me a long time to realise it but you can practice four and eight bar sections of harmony in exactly the same way. You can even alternate between one (harmony) and the other (melodic material) as you move round the cycle.

Did you play the 'lick' using a new fingering/string set for each key or just shift it around ? I've found shifting a single fingering around doesn't really help anything much. It is so intellectually passive that the mind drifts and not much gets remembered and the ear/finger connection isn't strengthened at all. Lots of books recommend that you practice this single fingering approach. But lots of books are written by people who give their work the title of the book that they most need to read rather than the one they should write.

Anyway I am glad you are having fun with your prep. I think it is a great shame that classical guitar teachers don't introduce these kinds of ideas early on for their pupils, in particular transposition, multiple fingerings and key sense. Mind you when I think of how arrogant,lazy,conceited and oblivious my pupils have been I can readily appreciate why even the few teachers who could seldom introduce these principles.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2015 16:47:38

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Following the leader (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Yeah, I am practicing the harmonic snippets the same way to try to get command of the sound (and fingering) of the chord changes. It seems that just playing songs does not give me the individual gestures or progressions very efficiently or securely. I am probably practicing 2-3 versions of the licks as well as the chord changes, because I don't want to be playing something up at the 11th fret or something. I am keeping in mind the scale degrees of each note. Geez, I sound so diligent and disciplined. If I just did this every day, I'd be exactly where I need to be in 10 years or so! :)

I have Aguado's method, and I think he approached these things in this kind of modular, building-block fashion. It always struck me as a good idea. Unfortunately, CG is a hodge-podge of styles, so many players end up just being paint-by-numbers note-players, relying on brute intellectual processing power and repetition rather than secure idiomatic mastery. One of the many advantages of flamenco or jazz or rock over classical learners.

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ

Arizona Wedding Music Guitar

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2015 17:29:40

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

If I just did this every day, I'd be exactly where I need to be in 10 years or so! :)

I have Aguado's method, and I think he approached these things in this kind of modular, building-block fashion.

One of the many advantages of flamenco or jazz or rock over classical learners.

Yup, and that is great news, I try not to beat myself up too much that I didn't start this kind of thing twenty years ago.

Yeah lots of good ideas and principles in the Aguado and Sagrereras and Carcassi AND Sor AND Coste method. if you compare these methods with Tennant Iznaola and 'modern' manuals you see just how far backwards we are falling.

More insidiously there are similar problems with 'modern' flamenco,rock and jazz pedagogy. All notes of the (alleged) parent scale are seen as being equal, noone wants to put in the work to know where they are in the harmony or outline the structure of the music in a meaningful way. Lot of allegedly inspirational playing reflects this all notes are equal (ie I don't mind being lost) approach the very very very worst I ever say was John Petrucci who waffled on for over an hour explaining harmonically redundant second hand Al De Meola licks to children in his execrable 'Rock Discipline' DVD, at no point did he ever relate anything to harmonic movement and with good reason, he is oblivious to it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2015 17:42:21

Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Miguel,
Thanks for the link to the articles. Lately I've been spending some time playing over changes and although I hear what David is saying, I think it's helpful to practice two chord changes. For example, there is the parallel modulation from major to minor. It happens in "all the things you are" in a sequence that goes Db major 7th, Db minor 7th, Ab major, etc.

I find that working out some reliable major to minor licks drawn directly from the chord shapes and chord tones seems to work pretty well. By expanding that exercise to various chord shapes and inversions, I believe a person will be pretty comfortable every time that sequence comes up, regardless of key. The problem, and the joy, of studying jazz is that there are so many different approaches(sequences, scales, arpeggios, chord tones, triad stacking, symmetrical scales, sidestepping, playing off the extensions, etc) that to become a well versed improviser it is a lifetime of study. Or, if you are exceptionally talented, I think the very best way to play over changes is to simply hear the changes, hear the melody you want to play, and play it. That is a very tall order however.

I also hear what Carol Kaye is saying because I used to be that guy. I'd learn a standard, then figure out what scales I'd play over various chords. It just didn't translate to good jazz playing. You really have to show the listener you know the individual chords, even if they can be covered with a single scale, in order to sound like a decent jazz player IMO. Good jazz players can demonstrate the harmony of the tune just by playing single note lines. I think that is also an excellent exercise in getting to know a tune as an improviser. In any case, I see flamenco moving more in this direction(jazz type improvisation), and despite a recent article by the great aficionado Brook Zern about the waning popularity of jazz and it's incompatibility with flamenco, I don't see an immediate future where flamenco guitarists don't know their whole tone and diminished runs.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2015 18:32:17

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

. Geez, I sound so diligent and disciplined. If I just did this every day, I'd be exactly where I need to be in 10 years or so! :)

Remember to have fun too, go on youtube and get yourself a random playlist of the songs and play along in whatever key suits each singer. Laugh off mistakes as they occurr but on a notepad jot down blindspots as soon as the song is over, refer to them next day to help focus.

Another thing, don't forget open position, twelve key thinking in open position really helps you learn. And you'll find that some traditionally easy guitar keys (E and A primarily) are pretty hard to play in and some allegedly hard keys are pretty convenient (Bb and Eb).

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2015 18:34:41

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Mark2)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

Or, if you are exceptionally talented, I think the very best way to play over changes is to simply hear the changes, hear the melody you want to play, and play it. That is a very tall order however.

Hi Mark I used to think that this was a pretty tall order (and it still is) but the more I think about it the more I realise that the real skill needed is playing tunes by ear. There is nothing too difficult about this is the problem is that very people practice this systematically.

A great tune to practice it with is ,La Vie en Rose'. Easy right ???? Try it in twelve keys in open position and see how you go...... you might get a fright. So I am gonna work on it for a while in the hope that if I am improvising and by some miracle a melody as subtle and perfect as this occurs to me I will have the SKILL (not talent) of finding it.

I know a sax player and I was talking to him about playing by ear and he looked at me pityingly and said....'It's a skill', it takes work. And it gives you the skill of playing tunes as opposed to finger patterns.

D.

(by the way I am ranting generally but not because anyone here deserves it).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2015 18:44:19

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Following the leader (in reply to guitarbuddha)

GB,

What you said about JP is very unfair, he knows his theory very well. Rock Discipline is mostly about the physical side of things.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2015 18:47:49

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

GB,

What you said about JP is very unfair, he knows his theory very well. Rock Discipline is mostly about the physical side of things.

I don't have anything against the guy and I know that his intention was and that it was good. The problem I have are these

1. His playing is very one dimensional precisely because this is how he spends most of his practice time.
2. He never once mentions any applications other than 'do this as fast as you can and hope your audience won't notice your mind is blank'.
3. I will never get the time I spent watching the DVD back.
4. I am tired of legendary guitarists who can't play.
5. This style of playing is childishly easy and takes about six months for a motivated pupil to pick up from scratch. It has been thirty years of these style of videos and young rock guitarists are getting less and less interesting. And people keep asking 'what scale should I use' to which I say even fish have ears.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2015 19:02:32

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Following the leader (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Still... that video is only about the physical side of playing guitar, that's why it is boring. If you want to know more about his musical side, check the Wild Stringdom column collection.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2015 19:06:38

Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Following the leader (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Well that's a different thing than what I was writing about. That particular skill, while it would translate to single note soloing in terms of general ear training, is not the most direct path to be able to take a great solo on a standard IMO. When I took private lessons with a great jazz player, the first thing he had me do was learn 40 standards-head, changes, make an original chord melody arrangement, and solo over it. While I think this approach is still very valid, as an 18 year old kid, I had little interest in sitting in a lounge doing solo jazz standards. But, I did enjoy playing in the university's big band, and the lessons I learned from him obviously were not completely lost. What I was referring to in my previous post were those few great jazz players who can blow amazing solos by ear without thinking about scales or even chords. From the brain directly to the instrument. It's not possible to know what someone is thinking, but I believe there are a small percentage of jazz players who can do it this way. I personally don't think working out tunes in 12 keys in open position will get you there but I could be wrong. Maybe you were talking about trying to pick out the melody-that does make a lot of sense in the context I'm thinking about. Now, pushing 57 years of age, I still have zero interest of playing solo jazz standards in a restaurant. I'd much rather play flamenco if I wanted to do that gig, and it pays way better. But I am still interested in improving my single note playing, in any style.

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

Or, if you are exceptionally talented, I think the very best way to play over changes is to simply hear the changes, hear the melody you want to play, and play it. That is a very tall order however.

Hi Mark I used to think that this was a pretty tall order (and it still is) but the more I think about it the more I realise that the real skill needed is playing tunes by ear. There is nothing too difficult about this is the problem is that very people practice this systematically.

A great tune to practice it with is ,La Vie en Rose'. Easy right ???? Try it in twelve keys in open position and see how you go...... you might get a fright. So I am gonna work on it for a while in the hope that if I am improvising and by some miracle a melody as subtle and perfect as this occurs to me I will have the SKILL (not talent) of finding it.

I know a sax player and I was talking to him about playing by ear and he looked at me pityingly and said....'It's a skill', it takes work. And it gives you the skill of playing tunes as opposed to finger patterns.

D.

(by the way I am ranting generally but not because anyone here deserves it).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2015 20:29:46

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Mark2)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

. It happens in "all the things you are" in a sequence that goes Db major 7th, Db minor 7th, Ab major, etc.

It is really hard to tell where you are in the piece here. I am gonna assume that you are talikng about bars seven through nine with all the changes up a semitone from the original key of Ab.

That would make by my reckoning the modulation from A to E with the Db misspelt as the three chord in the key of A has a C sharp not a Db.

But maybe you meant a different bit, it is hard to tell but I am pretty sure that at no point is there a modulation from major to paralell minor in the piece there are cadences (long chain expanded phrygian/cycle cadences) which are preceded by a chord which has as it's root the same note .

What there is and what I think makes the piece fascination is a substitution of the phrygian dominant chord (III7) with a major chord (IIIMaj7) but that is a different kind of colour change. Anyway it is a piece which is real easy to get lost in theoretically but real easy to sing and remember. I don't think I know all it's ins and outs and will probably be scratching my head after jams go pear shaped for years yet.

For sure getting better at tunes by ear won't be sufficient to make you a better improviser but as far as I can see it should be step one. I think issues of copyright and too many badly written books and the seventies fusion 'disaster'(my term and obviously not too objective) are responsible for the fact that the tune is the very last thing that guitarists learn. Should be the first, everything else is optional. I get real tired of people trying to solo over tunes they couldn't sing the melody of, it is the easiest thing in the world to spot.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2015 20:58:17

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Following the leader (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Once one is familiar with a genre, educated guessing of progressions is pretty natural. THere will always be the odd ball off the beaten path, but often times, anything "pretty" is probably based off of some other progression anyway. Anyway, cante accompaniment is based on the concept of "follow the leader" after all.

I want to say that of course the idea of "bigger picture" when improvising some type of chart is fine, but it is certainly sophomoric compared to the approach of treating each chord as it's own separate entity. It works for new comers until they are not scared to go at it "seat of the pants" as you say, all the time for any tune. Yes that means once you get into, it is like thinking happy birthday is three different modes going on, and it's pretty much impossible to go back to thinking it's just "major key" song. And while I am at it, there is the IV-iv-I mark was on about too.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2015 0:19:23

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

And while I am at it, there is the IV-iv-I mark was on about too.

While you are at what exactly ?

IV iv I is a route from four to one which brings out the chromatic line (in C) AAbG. In a blues you go a step further C C7 F Fm and that extends the line to Bb A Ab G. I've talked about it here before (with Tele on All of Me)

You like fusion I don't, fine. You think it is harder than earlier styles, I don't. John Coltrane could play older styles convincingly and that brought depth to his elaborations. Not the case with fusion cats, well not on guitar at least.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2015 0:27:18

Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Following the leader (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Bar 30. You are right it isn't really a modulation but bar 29 is Dbmaj7 and bar 30 is Dbmin7. I have a few versions of the chart and the harmony is quite different on each. Another version has bar 30 as Dbmin with a major 7th. when playing over it, ive found working out of Dbmin7th chord shapes and tones then going to Abmaj works well. this is one of the two chord moves written about in the article Miguel linked to. This type of variation is fairly common. That's why I felt Miguel's lazy bassist should look at the charts. its hard to imagine a bass player could hear all the possible ramifications on the fly. I suppose its possible he is very accomplished and could follow well no matter.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2015 0:28:02