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koenie17
Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España
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 RE: Cultura (in reply to Morante)
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The funny thing about this foro is that it can really be like a peña flamenca 
Hot discussions and people diagreeing all the time.
I think nowadays it´s a lot easyer to learn a bit of flamenco due to internet and the faster and cheaper comunicacion systems. Everyone gets lots of their falsetas from Youtube or similar websites. Flamenco being more popular and recodnized worldwide gets people interested and great guitarplayers and dancers can come from almost everywhere. So saying that you have to be in or from Spain or Andalucía to understand or become a flamenco(Dancer, player, etc.) I do not agree, look at monsterplayers like Ricardo, Jason Mcguire, Grisha, John Walsh or Luciano who are actually not even living in Spain and play the guitar better than I could ever learn in a lifetime . About the bullfighting it´s not my piece of cake but I´ve learned to live with it, many of my friends love it and there´s nothing I can do about it.
We allready had this discussion on the foro and I must agree that a cow that has never seen the daylight in his life, and lives in 2 square meter box until it gets slaughtered is also very cruel!! But it has been and still is a tradition here in Spain.
Of course flamenco and bullfighting are very close related because they both belong to the Spanish culture. So someone not interested or against bullfighting is less flamenco?!? Certainly not!!
Many people in Spain dont understand Sh#@t about flamenco, don´t even know the difference between la Soleá and a Siguiriya do some palmas correctly! So does that make the less Spanish?? In the end it´s all about taste and if you are willing to learn, If you study hard and you really want to everyone can learn to play the guitar or dance(singing is a different thing). El arte se hace? o se nace? Well I think both is correct. Of course it´s a lot easier living here and being able to acompany singers and dancers, or if you´re born in Jerez  .
I also enjoy Morantes post, even if he´s very critical about things!
quote:
But in the case of Morante, he's about as gitano (or even just Spanish) as the average beer-bellied UK tourist that comes to Andalusia every year to scorch themselves to a beautiful pink on the beaches
This I strongly disagree with!! It´s true that a very large part of us foreigners living here aply to that description but it´s not all of us...
If have been living here for almost half my life and I feel as Spanish as I feel Dutch,
My two boys or my wife don´t even speak Dutch! And Morante being a member of la peña Juanito Villar is quite a thing as they´ve got very few members! So I personally like to hear what he´s got to say. having a strong opinion and criticizing everything is actually very Spanish!! To understand la cultura Andaluza you have to come here a lot or actually live here, but I think nowadays it´s a lot easier to learn about flamenco living abroad than it used to be.
About the posting in Spanish I think it´s ok, because flamenco is SPANISH!!!
you want to know what it means, those online translators work better every time
Maybe a section for the Spanish speaking or for the people that would like to learn it isnt such a bad idea!
let´s all just respect eachother and our different opinions, even if we don´t agree.
And talk and learn about what we all love.... el Flamenco!
Morante: Espero que vienes a visitar nuestra peña en Mijas el mes que viene, que estamos en deuda con vosotros de la peña Juanito villar, nos habéis tratado de manera excelente  Que manera de comer! Madre mía!! Tengo ganas de verte en persona, con un poco de suerte podemos echar un ratito de los buenos  y hablar de todo un poco!
Un saludo
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Date Mar. 21 2015 17:20:01
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Pimientito
Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella
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RE: Cultura (in reply to Morante)
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quote:
El que no entiende la cultura compleja de Andalucía (no hace falta aguantarla) no puede ser aficionado
Why then talk about such a small part of Andalucian culture as the corrida?
I know lots of Andalucian flamencos who are not aficionados of the corrida and this subject ALWAYS causes arguments on the foro.
You paint a very stereotypical picture of an old Andalucia in poverty where men woke up early to pick olives, drink a large brandy with their pan and aceite for breakfast, spend the siesta gambling at dominoes, sharpening their neighbours knives in the afternoon from the back of an old motorbike and spending the night singing coplas in fear of the guardia about how much money they lost.
These were the days when the feria and corrida were the only diversions from a life of hardship. This to me is not representative of modern Spain or modern Flamenco.
In my opinion Andalucia today has a rich culture of gastronomia, of moorish and modern architecture, of poetry and literature, of sport, night life, fine wine and hospitality. Its a land of great natural wilderness, beautiful cities and warm vibrant people. You quote Pepe Manteca and forget Lorca, De Falla, Segovia, Picasso (y....Antonio Banderas) Surely these are the cultural virtues of modern Spain that we should encourage people to experience and learn. That is for me the "Cultura de Andalucia"
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Date Mar. 21 2015 20:50:43
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: Cultura (in reply to Morante)
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the culture thing would have to work both ways though ...
so anyone from Spain , and Andalucia ... living abroad .. would have to stay being Spanish and never be being from anywhere else ... despite how long they lived there or however much they changed ..??? is this what we are saying ?
This culture question has always interested me .. and my views on it have changed from time to time ...
this is just me myself ...because my parents are from different countries ..
question ...
if my father is from one country and my mother from another ,,,and if i was brought up in again a different country ... where am i from ?
meaning , well anyone ...really ...
is a person from a country because they have some genetic connection with that country but no real experience or knowledge ..
or am i from a country i grew up in ..know as well as any other from there ,, and yet have no genetic similarity ....
If i went back to a country i share blood with . am i accepted or viewed as an outsider ?..always ..no matter how long i lived there ?
if i write in Spanish here on the forum .. can i say .. but its my language for genetic reasons? .. so im allowed to ,, and claim allegiance to Cordoba , for example ..
I noted someone saying about a bit of elitism can be claimed by Andaulicians , gitanos or not because they earned it ....???/
can i claim this ???
personally i dont think so ....
Although I have changed my opinion on this over the years m , i belive that culture is a thing you live into...and its not genetically a given ...
which makes me English , i suppose ... i went to school there and a lot of my child hood schooling etc was there .. even though in my house there were a lot of influences around ...
So going back to live in Spain or Portugal ,,,is it going home ? or leaving home ?
while its true that this is an English speaking forum .. i see no problem in using Spanish , due to the nature of this foro...depending on who with , and for what reason ...
I see no problem at all with Morante writing , or giving an opinion for the spanish where he lives .. he is after all there .. he sees what happens . , he reads the news , he listens to the radio .. the fact that he is not ( i assume ) genetically connected with the country is of no consequence ...
dont ask me about Spain now , i dont live there , ask him ....
ask me about Ireland ...even though i was not born here ... I think i could tell you whats going on .....
In short .. I am much more in favour of the whole thing being almost exclusivly cultural and not genetic .....
I came across this phrase written by Munin on Morante ..
quote:
But in the case of Morante, he's about as gitano (or even just Spanish) as the average beer-bellied UK tourist that comes to Andalusia every year to scorch themselves to a beautiful pink on the beaches. No amount of living with gitanos, commenting on foro members with thinly veiled condescension or boasting about having accompanied this or that cantaor (all in Spanish on an English-speaking forum of course, which really gives it the maximum cringe factor) is gonna change that.
''no ammount of living with gitanos is gonna change that '' is the very idea that i thought about ..
I think it very inaccurate .. people do change and take on many ideas they would not have had if they had not have changed cultures ...definitely
it happened to me ..why not to anyone else ?
people would , by relocating to a radically different place , undergo a change of opinion , point of view ..adopt new foods , new life style , different clothing , diffeernt ways of thinking from a new location , , spurred on by anyone who is surrounding them ..
so where are we from .? ....where we grew up ?.... were we live ? or where our parents are from ? ....assuming there is some difference ....??
_____________________________
Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Mar. 22 2015 1:09:04
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edguerin
Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania
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RE: Cultura (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
This culture question has always interested me .. and my views on it have changed from time to time ...
this is just me myself ...because my parents are from different countries ..
Same for me. My mother was American (from New England), my father half French, half German, I was born in New Zealand but we moved to Germany when I was about 6 months old, where I spent a large part of my childhood, before we moved to Ireland, Kuwait, Lebanon, Saudi-Arabia, Cameroon, not to mention periods in Italy and Spain ...
I went to German, English (Ireland) and American (Switzerland) schools,
studied in Germany, am married to a German and spent all of my professional Life in Germany. I have a German passport. I've been living in the same area of Germany for the last 25 years.
I used to believe I was at home everywhere. This has changed over time. Speaking German almost all of the time has caused other languages to deteriorate. In particular my English has gotten pretty rusty.
Americans used to ask me what part of England i came from and "Brits" wanted to know where in America I was from. Nowadays I hear: "Your English is fantastic, where did you learn it?" A small but important distinction.
So rather than being at home everywhere, I have come to the insight that I am not really, completely at home anywhere (with all it's pros and cons).
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Ed
El aficionado solitario
Alemania
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Date Mar. 22 2015 8:01:27
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: Cultura (in reply to bicharraco)
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bicharraco
i see your point ... but most people only have one culture and therefore have no alternative to view others through their own ,,,,
the problem is this ....i could write back to you now in Spanish ...which is ok for many here but not all ..
the site is mainly English so why would i write in a language that would be seen as to exclude many here..
we both know there are many foros for flamenco in Spain , on the net in Spanish ...you yourself may visit some ..
I have written here in the past a few comments in Portuguese or Spanish when it is more, one to one and the message is really not too important ..
but for the most,, as now , i write in English ... for the majority of members ..
(espero que no hay problemas si hago esto)
I think the problem was stated for non-Spanish born members to write here in Spanish ,or about the Spanish culture, evidently claiming some kind of elitism ...
so the opposite must apply ..
therefore you, bicharraco . would have to write in English ...or any other language that was not your own , and you too would be marked as being elite ..
this was the problem or do i have this part wrong ? i do not see it ..
inconvenient for some ..perhaps .. but elitist ???
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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Mar. 22 2015 12:32:01
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runner
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
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RE: Cultura (in reply to bicharraco)
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A great strength of the Foro is its ability to draw in as participants aficionados from all over the world--people who will have been reared within a vast spectrum of disparate languages and cultural traditions. Yet all these people here are united by an irreducible minimum of two shared traits (though there may be more)--a love of flamenco, and the use of English as the language of the Foro. Now I can make my way through enough Spanish to understand the gist of what is being argued by our friends who are choosing to post in Spanish--we can all agree that the ideal would be for everyone to be fluent in Andalu who would seek a perfect score of 100 on the recently invented Flamencometer. But what I sense may be the attitude, unconscious maybe, of those who are choosing a path of mostly-Spanish or entirely-Spanish posting, is a desire to not communicate with the widest possible Foro population: indeed, "What we've got here is.."an impulse to limit communication! The accidents of history have made English the Lingua Franca (get it?) of global communication--when people from profoundly different backgrounds meet, the most widely invoked shared tongue is English-- we all know this. It's not because English is intrinsically superior; it's just the way it is.
So I would urge our Spanish-only enthusiasts to keep the use of Spanish to letras, short quotes, flamenco terms, etc., and stick with English as the medium with which to communicate with the entire Foro. If the widest possible audience is not their goal, then their continued exclusive use of Spanish will "speak for itself"--it will be clear that they have another agenda.
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Date Mar. 22 2015 13:18:38
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Cultura (in reply to bicharraco)
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quote:
El gran problema de este foro: [ethnocentrism]
No, Bicharraco, ethnocentrism is not the "gran problema de este foro." Foro members are based all over and speak many languages. They are a multicultural lot. Most are not ethnocentric.
Ethnocentrism is a problem, however, but one that I'm sure you did not intend in your post. Ironically, ethnocentrism is a problem that has been exhibited in spades by those few who have consistently claimed that in order to really understand and appreciate flamenco, one must speak Spanish and understand the "toritos," and that anyone who does not understand the culture of Andalucia "cannot be an aficionado."
I have cited below portions of the first two comments that began this thread.
"Mi gran amigo Pepe es matador de toros y regente de la mejor taberna de embutidos y ambiente de La Viña....El que no entiende la cultura compleja de Andalucía...no puede ser aficionado."
"Hombre, estoy de acuerdo pero hablar de toritos ya esta prohibido aqui. Parece que formamos una minoria. Yo, por ejemplo, pienso que sin hablar por lo memos un poquitin de castellano no se puede llamarse aficionado. Desgraciadamente la mayoria no vean la lengua como algo importante. No lo entiendo. No saben lo que estan perdiendo."
Reflect on that: In order to understand and appreciate flamenco one must speak Spanish, understand "toritos," and understand Andalucian culture. According to the above-cited interlocutors, if one doesn't possess the required attributes, one cannot be a flamenco aficionado. Now that's what I call ethnocentrism!
Regarding posting comments in Spanish, some of us speak Spanish, but my sense is the majority does not. Therefore, this is primarily an English language forum. It is like a conversation among all of us, and like any conversation among a group of people, the use of a language not understood by all leaves some out and by definition is exclusionary. In my opinion it is rude and does nothing but create a false sense of superiority among those who insist on posting in Spanish when they could easily do so in English.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 22 2015 15:53:31
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Cultura (in reply to Morante)
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Well, I have never said I was an aficionado. After years of playing old school flamenco on the guitar, whenever I listen to flamenco on the hi-fi these days it is almost always cante. Not that I'm against more modern guitar styles. I find them fascinating. It's just that solo guitar in general doesn't do it for me like cante. I still like to play, though. Still gets the blood up a little.
I grew up pretty much bilingual. But my Spanish is readily identifiable as "educated" Mexican. Speaking mostly English for the last couple of decades, the Spanish is getting rusty, but I can still lump along OK. No Andalu, though.
But I have learned of a severe disqualification only in this thread. I like Mexican chorizo, Cajun boudin, Texas BBQ sausage, cervelat, salami and a few others
quote:
ORIGINAL: Morante
Un extracto de “Escrito con tiza, Memorias de Pepe Manteca”
Mi gran amigo Pepe es matador de toros y regente de la mejor taberna de embutidos y ambiente de La Viña.
but I could not distinguish a Spanish embutido from a salchichón with any degree of reliability. Ethnocintrism? Guilty as charged.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 22 2015 21:03:08
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