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RE: What do people think flamenco is ?
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Jim Kirby
Posts: 149
Joined: Jul. 14 2011
From: Newark, DE, USA
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 RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
A theater full of people in Austin probably think Tomatito's latest beeg chó is flamenco. Three guitars, amplified to rock 'n roll level, an amplified cajon, three singers singing completely rehearsed ironed-out cante into the P.A. system, super "modern" harmony from the star.
No doubt it is flamenco, of the show biz modern day type.
The part that moved me was Paloma Fantova's dancing. She reminded me of Carmen Amaya, whose last performances in New York I saw in 1962. But they only let Fantova do two numbers. Tomatito's management cautioned the local promoters not to overshadow him with praise for the dancer.
RNJ
Well, I'll go out on a limb, but I thought the dancer in Tomatito's group this past year was pretty special.
Ah, after reading more of the thread... I like Tomatito's very sparce and open and jazz-inflected take on the basic idiom, and I thought the dancer was really, really good.
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Date Mar. 9 2015 22:14:29
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to El Kiko)
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I just don't think we need to be too concerned about what the public thinks flamenco is or is about. And I certainly don't think it is our job to "educate" the public. If someone were to approach me and request information on flamenco and its history, I would be glad to oblige. But the average person who might find flamenco "exotic" and different probably does not want to delve too deeply into it. And I don't view it as my job to force it on him.
I cannot emphasize enough the effect some professional musicians have on public perceptions. I mentioned in my original post in this thread that the Gipsy Kings performed at Wolf Trap Park about three years ago, and their playbill stated: "See them perform fiery flamenco songs like Bamboleo!" And there is Ottmar Liebert calling his stuff "flamenco." And there are others as well. With that kind of nonsense, is it any wonder that the audience who views their performances is misled and comes out thinking they understand something that has been fraudulently fed to them?
If they are interested enough, they will begin researching flamenco on their own. If they are not interested, nothing we say or do will convert them. And I still think that the constant eye-rolling every time we hear "flamingo" gets old, especially after the fifteenth time. Let's put it to bed.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 10 2015 0:08:36
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
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quote:
Flamingo as an inside joke, that's fine. Flamingo as a way to imply superior knowledge about something that maybe only you care about.
I agree with your observation cited above. It's just that, in my opinion, as an "inside joke" it gets old. And it's easy to flatter one's self by feeling superior in knowing it's flamenco, and not "flamingo," like the poor shmucks are calling it who are sitting in the next row. To feel superior to them and to make light of their ignorance is like shooting fish in a barrel. But that's just my opinion.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 10 2015 14:32:18
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to BarkellWH)
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i think the point is missed here ... ah well ..
quote:
I just don't think we need to be too concerned about what the public thinks flamenco is or is about. And I certainly don't think it is our job to "educate" the public.
the public ....you dont have to be concerned ....who do you think listens to you when you play ?
The public is us ,,,me ... everyone ....with the possible exception of you , who seems to have detached yourself from 'the public ' to be ....non public .. ..
of course its not your job to educate them ( the public again?) no one asked for that ...its more that what do the people ,,i hate to use the word public again ...the people who are not affiliated with flamenco . think it might be , is or should be ..
this information may be of use when you play for 'the public' .
as was mentioned earlier Jimi , said you have ease them in ...
how does that work? ...unless you have already decided for them what is best and easier to listen to first and then what could be next ..
The problem with that supposition is ...you might be wrong ....
I am increasingly under the impression that it is wrong ,, and the public ,, dont need easing in .. they are ok to just just have it ..bang
from ...
A rep of the public
_____________________________
Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Mar. 10 2015 17:51:41
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to runner)
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quote:
But easing people in seems the common-sense way, rather than throwing people into the water and hoping that they'll swim.
I agree, Runner, but only to the extent that there is a genuine desire to learn about it. I stated in my comment above (with which Kiko took issue): "If someone were to approach me and request information on flamenco and its history, I would be glad to oblige. But the average person who might find flamenco "exotic" and different probably does not want to delve too deeply into it. And I don't view it as my job to force it on him."
I continue to think that flamenco is very much a niche genre, and the vast majority of the public who might enjoy it as background in a restaurant, or even enjoy it as a 30-minute floor show punctuating an evening's convivial atmosphere in a club or pub, probably has no desire to go any further with it. And (with apologies to Kiko) I am not particularly concerned that that is the case. I must emphasize that I am more than willing to discuss flamenco with those who express an interest, but it does not bother me if no interest is expressed.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 11 2015 13:27:52
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
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BarkellWH .. I seem to have alienated you .. not intentionally .. just that we were talking about different things .. or maybe the same thing from a different point of view .. no matter ...
runner ... people have to be eased in ?/ i think that is very wring .. it means someone else decides what you can,, and cant listen to ... crazy ... and the example you gave was really not applicable ..sorry
However ,, payaso .. touched on it in his post ..people dont get 'eased' into blues or rock or anything like it ...its just you hear it ... you like it ... or not ...
I cant see a flamenco concert having bouncers on the door '' Sorry mate , theres a lot of seguirillas on tonight .. come back tomorrow for the sevillanas concert ..''
easing people in .. is not only impractical .. its virtually impossible , and would infuriate the vast majority ..
I think people would say ..I decide what i listen to , i decide if i like it , i decide if i will listen to more ... and that s how it should be ...
was it not with you ? or were you systematically eased in by instruction/education from the beginning with fairly simple/accessible bits and then exposed with increasing complexity.,... good grief man ...
I could not put myself so high up or regard others as so low down ...
What my point is ,, is that people do like flamenco .. more than is said here...sure they get bits wrong and have no terminology .. but thats ok ..
Flamenco was designed that way .. or rather evolved that way ...
This music wasnt meant to be unacessable ..quite the contrary . it was the music of the people . the lower bit .. for them to have as their own .. and pass on as it went ..
I asked someone the what is flamenco question ...one answer more or less as i remember ....
''Its spanish music isnt it? .. a lot of shouting .. they get together,, sing , clap there hands ,,dance and have a good time ...its ok but i couldnt do it every night ...'''
Thats is it .. a brilliant answer .. from someone who has no idea of flamenco other then bits that turn up on the telly from time to time ...
Yet , that is pretty much the essence of it and how it goes ...
Of course you are much deeper into it than that ...which is all well and good .. and thats good too,,, but,,,, no matter how much you study or how long you live in Spain or play or whatever ...if you dont get the bit about having a good time .. the feel good , sharing group thing of flamenco ... then you have missed the point ..
in short .. lots of people like flamenco a lot .. they just dont know it .. but if they hear it they will like it ... mostly .. but of course not all the time just in small doses ..
and i think that is just fine ...
Yes Sr Martins ... payaso said '' If the music's good, most people will enjoy it.''
and his sentiments were right ..spot on .....they will ..
How long do you spend listening to music you dont like ??
_____________________________
Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Mar. 11 2015 20:41:19
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to El Kiko)
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quote:
BarkellWH .. I seem to have alienated you .. not intentionally .. just that we were talking about different things .. or maybe the same thing from a different point of view .. no matter ...
Kiko, You most definitely have not alienated me. I appreciate your ideas, and although we may have different points of view, I never let that get in the way of enjoying discussions with colleagues. After all, it would be a pretty dull world if we all agreed on everything.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 11 2015 22:09:26
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
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Sr. martins ... the phrase'' music of the people '' means music of the ordinary common man ..the masses .., the worker .. the people not born into a higher class perhaps ..
it does not mean just ''people ' 
yes, correct ,, good music is just that , music that is good .. its self explanatory .. you like it ...ipsofacto its good ...for you .. easy
most people , i assume is referring to more then half of the people in any particular place where they may be listening to flamenco .. i.e a bar a pub .. whatever ...
I cannot comment on where you get the 2% statistics quoted from and do not know if you are referring to a certain country , continent or worldwide ..
I also cannot equate that the opposite must apply .. i.e. it sucks , this would be an erroneous conclusion ...
I like plenty of classical music .. and in fact was listening to Claude Debussy a few nights ago .. and yet I do not buy it , so i would not show up in your statistics .. along with others i suspect ...
I dont think i would like the statistics of record companies to enter into this , it may lead it in the wrong area completely..
guitarbuddha ... I really am not trying to have the high ground or be a humble introvert ..
I was putting over the point that many here seem not to give other .. lets call them ..non-afficionados ., for want of a phrase .. a chance to say what they like ..in flamenco of course ...
In short .. misrepresentation ..
I do hear , on here,, a lot of flamingo this and flamingo that .. and yet in my experience ...the real world isnt like that .. I find a lot of people do like it , given a chance ,, .
people are not as ignorant as some make out, I find many are curious and and make a point of asking something or just saying.. they liked it ..
The only way I am perhaps being humble is by identifying with these people .. I am after all pretty much one of them .. i can understand what they mean when they talk about . ' spanish music '' in the terms that they use ... ..
I, inversely, from being humble ,often get the impression from some , that there is some type of elitism about learning flamenco . or having all this knowledge and studies that others do not care to have ..
I often in these cases just go back to ,, enjoyment ,
it sound good .. i like it... and so do others , with or without studies ....
If only i could rise up to the level of being humble ...
(edit .....BarkellWH ....nice post ..just spotted it ...)
_____________________________
Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Mar. 11 2015 22:19:59
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