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What do people think flamenco is ?
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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 What do people think flamenco is ?
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After some recent posts and playing , i was thinking .. what do people think flamenco is ..???
??
be very careful , this may be different from ,, ...What do you think , people think, flamenco is ..?
so since we are many and spread out across the globe.. perfect .. this would be for all countries even including Spain ..
if the term is in some way confusing , it could be rephrased as , What do you think Spanish music is?
of course it would cover , music , dance , singing and culture ...
Are we being too hard on people ...?
so myabe over the next week or so ask people the question . and post here ..
is it the same all over the world ?,,
or do countries differ ..?
after all, the foroflamenco being so wide spread is the perfect place and medium to get fairly quick results ...
way may learn from it ...
dont ask people who you already think .. may have an opinion .. ask a random person ..someone unexpected ... whatever they say post ...be it good or bad ...
and lets just see..out of curiosity ...shall we say ...
thank you
_____________________________
Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Mar. 8 2015 2:10:47
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runner
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
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 RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to El Kiko)
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Like jimi posted: "passionate, Latin noodling, flamingo, gipsy kings, pretty dresses, tap dancing...that's what people think..." Once, somebody said to me, "Oh, you like flamingo dancing?!" But unlike jimi's experience, people's reaction is negative when they see and hear Agujetas singing por Siguiriyas. I once read an Amazon review of a Sabicas CD I particularly like, where he plays only accompanying cante: the reviewer said she had bought the CD to enjoy some wonderful guitar playing, but when she heard the horrible screeching and moaning, she went out onto her balcony and threw the disk as far as she could....
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Date Mar. 8 2015 10:49:40
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xirdneH_imiJ
Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
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RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to runner)
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Runner is right, you should definitely not introduce people to the genre using Agujetas :D
What I said is based on experiences after concerts - and our show is designed to ease them in, some tangos, alegrías, guajiras, then comes the hardcore stuff, soleá, tientos, caña...by then they're already enjoying it enough not to say "where the heck am I", but their interest is raised to at least a level where they can sit through the performance without being in too much pain  - then we top it off with some fiesta por bulerías, so at least we leave a positive mark at the end. But I'm sure Ricardo could say a lot more about this after having been a top performer for so many years...(and is a part time rumbero as well :))
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Date Mar. 8 2015 12:22:31
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runner
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
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RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)
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jimi, your method of gradually "immersing" newcomers in flamenco by introducing them first to tangos, rumba, etc., then moving on to tientos, etc., but bringing it all to a finale with a spirited bulerias, is super good--I salute you. That's how I first became aware of flamenco. But there is a lesson here--the closer you get to the heart of flamenco, the fewer will be the number of people around you. A full appreciation of authentic flamenco is only for a very, very small percentage of people. This isn't snobbery, it's just a fact that cante, especially jondo, appeals to very few listeners. I just happened to be one of those few for whom cante became my idea and ideal of what flamenco was about.
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Date Mar. 8 2015 12:50:16
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runner
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
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RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to withinity)
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In high school, I was fortunate to find and befriend a new kid coming into our school from a distant state. He, like me, was also interested in various sorts of music, and we discovered that we shared an interest in flamenco. We both bought the historic Hispavox/Westminster Perico 3-disk anthology, but then split up our purchases so that we'd lend each other LPs--he got the Manolo Caracol, I got the José Greco with Rafael Romero and Manolita de Jerez, etc. And during the long years after, when I was alone with the music, it sustained me by itself, just hearing it on my recordings. But thankfully we now have the miracle of YouTube, where wonderful people have saved the great flamenco legacy of the past, going quite far back, so that the world now can share in this art to any degree they wish. So one way to slowly familiarize people with flamenco would be to structure a progression of YouTube videos that would take newcomers from the outside edges of flamenco step by step deeper toward its center. Some will stay in the shallow end of the pool, but some others will venture further in......
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Date Mar. 8 2015 17:05:16
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to El Kiko)
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The issue concerning ignorance of flamenco comes up every once in awhile, and we tend to resort to the same criticisms: People think anything "Spanishy" is flamenco (if they think about flamenco at all). On the other hand, plenty of people probably think of flamenco, not as flamenco, but as "Spanish guitar." And there is the old standby that is an easy target: People calling it "flamingo." In fact, I think our criticism of "flamingo" should be retired. It is such an easy target that it is like shooting fish in a barrel, and it doesn't really indicate great erudition on our part.
The fact is, flamenco is very much a niche genre. To those of us who love it, play it, study it, and take it seriously, it can be off-putting to hear so much ignorance and misinformation about it. Nevertheless, most people I have met who don't know much about it genuinely like it when played well. They may not understand it, but they consider it different, exotic, and like it. Of course, they like the "Spanishy" stuff too. But we're not going to educate the vast majority on the subject of flamenco. And keep in mind that they are sometimes misled by promoters. I remember when the Gipsy Kings played at Wolf Trap, just outside of Washington, DC, about three years ago. The playbill advertising their performance stated: "See them perform fiery flamenco songs like Bamboleo!"
Finally, my sense is that outside of the "Flamenco Triangle" in Andalucia, the vast majority in Spain neither know much about flamenco nor care about it anymore than the vast majority here in the U.S. or those in Europe. We probably ought to hold our fire on the public and train it on those musicians who really do misrepresent the genre.
Bill
_____________________________
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With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
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Date Mar. 8 2015 19:26:47
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to tele)
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quote:
I would guess they think it is anything................
this is my point , that we get away from ...I dont want you to guess anything ...or tell me what you think , that they think ...
just go and ask some people and write what they say .....don't guess ...
as BarkellWH said quote:
The issue concerning ignorance of flamenco comes up every once in awhile
this isn't at all the issue here ...i think in part it might be us ....
Do we write off a huge amount of people based on what a few might say ..?
I think its quite possible , don't try to second guess the dumbest things people say , even if they do exist , ..people often know a surprising amount about a lot of stuff ...of course i don't think you will get a big insight ,, but i don't think you will get FLAMINGO either ..
as for cante , that's kinda difficult if its not in your language at least ... however ..
people know all kinds of stuff about what they don't do or understand ... I know a lot about space flight and planets , satellites etc .. but i never been in space or anywhere near a space ship ,,or anything ...and yet could have a good conversation with any astronomer or astronaut about a lot of stuff ...
I think that we write people off too easily with the flamingo jokes and stereo type people ....
I think that a lot of people .. more than half , would like flamenco music , to see it performed .. assuming it was played well ..,even though they may not have a knowledge of palos etc ..
and while it mightn't be that they would listen every day , many a time they might ...
If it sounds good they will like it , they don't have to study it to do this ... you do ...
I will ask some random people this week , and put what answers i get ..
People who dont know i play and i think have no connection with Spain at all ...
I might be wrong and get a flamingo ,,, lets see ....
_____________________________
Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Mar. 8 2015 23:03:43
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Guest
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RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to El Kiko)
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Some recent responses and comments from non flamenco people
Most contact is at resturant gigs I've been doing a lot of lately , some Solo, some with a dancer and singer
Otherwise I don't get out much and feel nervous approaching strangers asking them what they think flamenco is :-) - ( also may go into deep depression if I find out )
A well known award winning blues singer here was in a euphoric inspired frenzy when she heard the singing from a 2010
Paco de Lucia - it really blew Her mind - she started singing and improvise to the music - prior she thought flamenco was 'girl from Ipanema .. She got the power of the singing straight away - never heard it before and fell in love with it -
Others have the dance as their reference - the guitar itself has less of a visual memory impact for most I find - they think the colour, drama, footwork, castanets and fans etc ...
Many I speak to here seem to know someone who knows someone who has dabbled in flamenco dance lessons locally
Recent travel to Spain where they saw some flamenco comes up a lot
These seem the general points of conversation and comments
No direct reference to artists (except Paco) or Palos ( except sevillanas )
The guitar seems more obscure
'Sounds spanish' was a comment yesterday
'My daughter takes flamenco lessons , can you play a sevillanas ' was another
'What kind of guitar music is that?'
And the best 'that sounds like paco de lucia'. ... ( well, kudos for recognizing almoraima ..)
Gigs with dancers and singers are more 'flamenco' to the public - which of course makes complete sense - other wise your just a guy with a guitar -with the right people , people really seem to love it and are in awe - it's easy to see - they seem to generally ask 'what's the story ' ...( there's a story ? )
Others have a blank stare and seem to mumble flamingo
The gypsy kings deserve a mention as I find comments more from musicians thinking it's flamenco ( ' I was surprised how many cover band musicians see flamenco as armik etc ) while the general public , here anyway , usually comment on the dance ... As a solo guitarist it's not the full flamenco package ( though they don't mind an absent singer )
The two singers I work with both do rumba/flamenquito as well as palo's such ac farruca, alegrias, bulerias, tangos, etcetera
So I'm not sure what message we are sending out
Tried to keep it all in the confines of my observation on recent conversation
Hope that contributes something
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Date Mar. 9 2015 10:12:02
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Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to Leñador)
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Really? Almost walked out on Tomatito? I saw the show in SF and thought it was pretty good. I liked seeing the kids play too.
As to the subject, when I got into flamenco I was already playing guitar and had experience gigging in a lot of local venues, so I started playing solo and built some momentum. I knew, or thought, that people into guitar playing in general would enjoy flamenco. I was fairly successful, but I was doing a watered down version of it. Later, when I learned to play for dance and started delving into more authentic ways of playing, and what current pros were actually playing, I lost all interest in making "converts". At this point I understand and accept that few people like what aficionados consider flamenco, and even fewer understand it to any significant degree.
So, I don't know what people think flamenco is, and I don't really care. I can say I've seen all sorts of reactions, from the event planner who placed a red bolero hat complete with dingle balls on my head as I was playing a gig, to a guy from Spain who was amazed and delighted that I could play bulerias in compas. From a diplomat at the Spanish consulate who couldn't believe I wasn't from Spain to a waiter from Argentina who thought it would be impossible for me to play flamenco because I wasn't Spanish.
Perhaps most memorable was when I saw a show with Chuscales playing for Tania. I grabbed a front row seat in an intimate club. With Chus was a local guitarist, a solid player but without the chops Chus has. A random woman sat next to me and I remarked to her that she was in for a treat, as a famous guitarist was about to tear the place down. As expected Chus lit the place up with spectacular picados, alzupuas, etc. I felt a little bad for the local guitarist, and putting myself in his shoes, wondered what I'd play and how I'd do if I was onstage with Chus. He did his best, but was completely overshadowed by Chus' formidable technique. After the set, the woman next to me asked " Who was the famous one?"
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leñador
quote:
The part that moved me was Paloma Fantova's dancing. She reminded me of Carmen Amaya, whose last performances in New York I saw in 1962. But they only let Fantova do two numbers. Tomatito's management cautioned the local promoters not to overshadow him with praise for the dancer.
I saw that show here in LA and I gotta be honest, Paloma was the only thing that kept me from walking out......she was incredible and he did an incredible job accompanying her but the rest of the show put me to sleep.
Someone told me recently that they thought it was like folklorico except with those clicky hand thingies. 
We learn folklorico in elementary school out here.....
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Date Mar. 9 2015 16:34:42
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to Guest)
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thanks Alval ...that actually sounds promising really ..
i dont mean that you have to leap out on unsuspecting passersby 
but you may be talking to people anyway ,, and the opportunity may arise m, sort of thing ...
One thing I get is that people do like it ...I think that we classify things ... and subdivide them ,,,
flamenco into palos and if its got cante or dance ..
Many people do not have to do this ...they have 2 boxes to put things in
1...Music I like
2... Music I dont like
its that simple ...cante seems to fall in the dont like box ..difficult to understand ,, and non spanish speaking have a bad time ...
but tune rhythm etc are international , dance is good too ..
a lot of people like a lot of spanish music , flamenco , they may not listen every day , but really have no problem with it
i got ...play the other one you did before that was more aggresive ...(bulerias )
so they dont have the vocab ..they just make their own up
_____________________________
Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Mar. 9 2015 18:00:19
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