Help fixing Tie block - and break angle

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JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

Help fixing Tie block - and break angle

I'm sorry these are poor photos, they are zoomed in to reduce size. Ill edit some better ones in Photoshop if need be.

I would like to fill the holes in the tie block and re drill them. The holes have become enlongated over the years and I think they are really limiting the break angle on the treble side. The 1st and 2nd strings are a bit lack luster i feel. I'm going to get a protractor to measure the break angle to know for sure, but it looks pretty low.

I'd wood filler the way to go?
How can I re drill these holes? I've seen someone use a pin vice attached to a stick. I can't find a pin vice. I was thinking I might be able to use my Dremel with a right angle attachment.

Thanks,
Jason

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 22 2015 18:36:50

Flamingrae

Posts: 220
Joined: May 19 2009

RE: Help fixing Tie block - and brea... (in reply to JasonM)

Difficult to see properly whats happening but, I'll tell you what I normally do.
First I take some filler wood of the same as the bridge - rosewood per chance? but it needn't be. Shape into solid rods of about two or three mm and plug the holes possibly re-drilling where you need to.
I have two sizes of drills for the next part. 1mm for holes 1,2 and 4. 1.5mm for holes 3, 5 and 6. The drills are soldered into the ends of steel rod about 2.5mm thick with easy-flo solder. The steel rod about 7-8 inches long. You can fit these into a hand drill to start and finish with an electric and you might want to think about a 12 hole version whilst you are at it. Done this reasonably well on a number of instruments. This should increase the break angle if you aim low on the bridge. You might want to put some card or thin ply on the soundboard to protect it. Best of luck 8-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2015 1:05:24

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Help fixing Tie block - and brea... (in reply to JasonM)

Here is an easy fix for worn tie holds. He used ebony shims. I used birch toothpicks. It is important to have strings in place when shimming the holes.

Also, converting to a 12-hole tie block is an alternative method for restoring break angle force.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2015 13:14:00

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Help fixing Tie block - and brea... (in reply to JasonM)

The pictures are so bad that they don't show me anything, but I understand the situation, which is not uncommon. Wood filler does not sound like a good idea to me. (Not ever.)

What I would suggest is that you get some round wooden toothpicks. Perhaps plane them a little so there's a flat side. The round side should fit the top of the holes. Cut pieces the same length as the holes.

Carefully Superglue them to the tops of the holes, using something that won't stick to the glue (such as a G string) stuffed between the bottom of the toothpick and the bottom of the hole while the glue sets. No re-drilling required.

(Oh, yeah, like that video. I just saw that post.)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2015 14:34:30

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Help fixing Tie block - and brea... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

What I would suggest is that you get some round wooden toothpicks. Perhaps plane them a little so there's a flat side. The round side should fit the top of the holes. Cut pieces the same length as the holes.

Carefully Superglue them to the tops of the holes, using something that won't stick to the glue (such as a G string) stuffed between the bottom of the toothpick and the bottom of the hole while the glue sets. No re-drilling required.

That is exactly what I do but I thought it was the "unprofessional/lazy route"

Anyways, it works great.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2015 15:01:34

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Help fixing Tie block - and brea... (in reply to JasonM)

Well, IMO, there is only one way to do this. YOu have to fill the holes with rosewood dowels, glued in tight, then redrill. I had it done
for a student by an expert luthier...I don't think you should do it yourself. A downward hole direction will increase the break angle
enough...if you really care about that ****.

After you get it done, STOP pulling upward your strings when stretching them out (that is why this happens so
extremely IMO). Instead tune sharp any new strings and let them settle down on their own, never yank em.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2015 16:47:35

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Help fixing Tie block - and brea... (in reply to JasonM)

Is making a 12 hole tieblock from it ( add 6 more holes) not a better solution?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2015 17:12:13

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Help fixing Tie block - and brea... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

After you get it done, STOP pulling upward your strings when stretching them out (that is why this happens so
extremely IMO). Instead tune sharp any new strings and let them settle down on their own, never yank em.

There's something that even pro players do when putting on new strings.... and it's really dumb.

Why would anyone insert the string from the back and having it all slide through the hole instead of inserting only a few centimeters from the front? This way you'll grind the bass holes 20X faster

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2015 18:11:33

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Help fixing Tie block - and brea... (in reply to JasonM)

Thanks to everyone for the help. Just what I needed to know. Im headed to a hardwood shop I've been wanting to check out anyway , and I'm going to see if i can get something to make some shims from. Honestly I feel like fabricating an extended drill bit is going to be the bitch part of this.

Richard, I never pull on my strings, always tune slightly sharp like you say. However the guy I bought this guitar from on the foro a while back must have. The axe needed some TLC and I've since done some stuff to it. I'm going to tread the waters carefully and if I feel uncomfortable I'll take it somewhere. I called a local shop that set up Toddk Brune but they didn't want to mess with mine :/ I simply asked them if they would look over the guitar

Well I got a piece of Ebony. They didn't have rosewood. Seems like natures steel. Should be fun cutting this into shims!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2015 18:33:23

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Help fixing Tie block - and brea... (in reply to JasonM)

So I started the procedure of converting to a 12 hole tieblock. I drilled the first hole for the hi E string, and re strung the guitar. What a difference it made! It improved the break angle to where it should be and the string tension or pulsation feels so much better.

However I did make two mistakes. First, I miss calculated the angle of the drill bit. I drilled too parallel to the soundboard and came out too high on the other side. So I re drilled with the correct going through the existing hole but at a steeper angle so I have an additional hole beneath the first on the . I'll have to plug it or just leave it.

Second, when the drill came through the other side of the block it splintered the rosewood a bit. I am going to try and tape it to mitigate this but I was hoping for suggestions...

I wish I would have converted to a 12 hole a long time ago.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2015 17:27:47

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Help fixing Tie block - and brea... (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

I wish I would have converted to a 12 hole a long time ago.

I like it too, it makes it super easy when you want to "renew" the basses by taking out a bit from what's in the roller and re-tie at the bridge. No messy knots to screw your fingernails.

Beware of the trebles, that high E might whip your top if it slips.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2015 17:58:26

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Help fixing Tie block - and brea... (in reply to JasonM)

Like Rui said - watch out for the trebles slipping at the tie block. I burn the string ends with a match. This makes them mushroom. So, they will stay in place.

With the increase break angle anchoring force from the 12-hole block conversion you can hit the strings more forcefully without those odd overtones.

Thanks for the update.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2015 19:45:36