RE: THE ESSENCE OF "DUENDE"

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Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: THE ESSENCE OF "DUENDE" (in reply to runner)

quote:

I think that "duende" will be found to be a near-universal ingredient in musics from all over the world, and it will be very difficult for proponents of duende as a phenomenon unique to flamenco to prove their thesis

Especially if the ones they are trying to "prove" it to, have zero compas.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2015 18:47:42

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: THE ESSENCE OF "DUENDE" (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo's carefully considered post above reminds me of an experience I once had on a message board devoted to Led Zeppelin. After many decades of listening to rock and to the very great art of Zeppelin--whom I often argue as a uniquely gifted fountainhead of rock--I had determined which of Led Zeppelin's songs I liked, and those others to which I was indifferent. I proceeded to state, therefore, on this Zep message board that I didn't like everything that Zeppelin recorded. What a reaction! It was as if I had thrown a stink bomb into church on the Sabbath--I could not possibly be a Led Zep fan if I didn't like every one of their songs. Maybe I just didn't appreciate enough Zeppelin's "duende" even though they are my contenders for "Best Rock Group Ever".

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2015 19:29:00

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: She's got it (?) THE ESSENCE OF ... (in reply to gj Michelob)

Many good definitions and descriptions of "Duende" have been put forward in this thread: heightened emotion, soul, spirit, a "co-miseration among folks." In my opinion, "Duende" can only be experienced in the context of flamenco, and, as Ricardo points out, it can be experienced alone or in a group.

Someone might apply the above descriptive terms to a feeling experienced in other genres of music, but it would not be "Duende." That's why it is so hard to nail it down. Duende is something different in terms of heightened emotion or soul in flamenco, than the terms "heightened emotion" and "soul" suggest in other forms of music.

Giacomo, to carry your last post a step further in terms of the lawyer you quoted, perhaps the term "Duende" should not be nailed down pat with a definition, as it might exclude a feeling that doesn't quite fit the words we use. To this end, I would like to quote Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart on the definition of "obscenity."

In 1964, United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart tried to describe his threshold test for obscenity in Jacobellis v. Ohio. In explaining why the material at issue in the case was not obscene under the Roth test, and therefore was protected speech that could not be censored, Stewart wrote:

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description [hard-core pornography], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that."

We might paraphrase Justice Stewart's description of hard-core pornography ("I know it when I see it.") to apply to Duende: "I know it when I feel it."

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2015 19:34:39

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: THE ESSENCE OF "DUENDE" (in reply to runner)

quote:

I had determined which of Led Zeppelin's songs I liked

For reasons I have never quite addressed within myself, other than I just like it a lot, it's "The Ocean" for me

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2015 19:38:29

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: She's got it (?) THE ESSENCE OF ... (in reply to BarkellWH)

I see that there are clearly two ways to think and talk about duende: it's very, very special and/but it cannot--or must not ('cause it's so special)-- be subject to study, definition, or analysis. Kind of like a religion? Or, as an actual, human response to actual stimuli, it can be so studied and analyzed, and might be found to be experienced in a whole variety of settings. But I'll bet nobody has bothered to read the citation.......

For me, it's Kashmir.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2015 19:45:21

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: She's got it (?) THE ESSENCE OF ... (in reply to runner)

quote:

ORIGINAL: runner

I see that there are clearly two ways to think and talk about duende: it's very, very special and/but it cannot--or must not ('cause it's so special)-- be subject to study, definition, or analysis. Kind of like a religion? Or, as an actual, human response to actual stimuli, it can be so studied and analyzed, and might be found to be experienced in a whole variety of settings. But I'll bet nobody has bothered to read the citation.......

For me, it's Kashmir.

Manolo Sanlucar has stated numerous times that Duende and such flamenco myths are BS. Which is quite Ironic when you consider he has and expresses more duende than most guitar players. But he is a bit of an oddity in general compared to his colleagues.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2015 19:49:32

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: She's got it (?) THE ESSENCE OF ... (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

Giacomo, to carry your last post a step further in terms of the lawyer you quoted, perhaps the term "Duende" should not be nailed down pat with a definition, as it might exclude a feeling that doesn't quite fit the words we use. To this end, I would like to quote Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart on the definition of "obscenity."

In 1964, United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart tried to describe his threshold test for obscenity in Jacobellis v. Ohio. In explaining why the material at issue in the case was not obscene under the Roth test, and therefore was protected speech that could not be censored, Stewart wrote:

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description [hard-core pornography], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that."

We might paraphrase Justice Stewart's description of hard-core pornography ("I know it when I see it.") to apply to Duende: "I know it when I feel it."

Bill

Well, done, Bill. 'love it. I remember the famous case and the Justice' words, very eloquent and wise.

On the issue of defining Duende, while I wholeheartedly concur with your quote of our learned Justice, I really liked Ricardo's point, which I had mentioned. Perhaps, it does not exhaust the definition of the elusive concept, but it certainly captures the most visceral energy of it, "Commiseration".

That energy is neither self pity nor lament, neither passion nor pathos, but the solidarity amongst those suffering common "dolor".

So, while the lawyer novelist felt the weight of centuries of history on her shoulders, it is the history of shared tragedy and suffering that awakes Duende. But then... Duende has a life of its own!!

_____________________________

gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2015 20:17:45

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: She's got it (?) THE ESSENCE OF ... (in reply to Ricardo)

Manolo Sanlucar may not be alone. In the excellent reference book "Flamenco: Gypsy Dance and Music from Andalusia", author and editor Claus Schreiner quotes cantaor Juan Talegas when asked about duende: "Nonsense! Where did you foreigners ever get this idea of duende? From Garcia Lorca maybe? Duende, it's like a fever, like malaria. I had duende only twice in my life, but afterwards they had to carry me out."

Schreiner offers some more thoughts on duende, quoting a notion of another observer that "duende is the agreement between an inner hearing and external sound. When what the cantaor feels in his soul and has translated into song in his inner ear, is identical with what is actually sung, he is overwhelmed with a feeling of achievement akin to a state of ecstasy. The same can be said of baile and toque artists. Artists in other genres have described nearly identical experiences." (italics mine).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2015 20:19:51

jmb

Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain

RE: She's got it (?) THE ESSENCE OF ... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Manolo Sanlucar has stated numerous times that Duende and such flamenco myths are BS.

It is logic in the case of Sanlucar, because he always fight for a sistematization of flamenco music with aim of improve his teaching.

It is curious that many flamenco guitarrist are far from this concept (Lucía too), but most singers and many dancers belive in get "el pellizco". And is curious that Lucía always said that guitar is training and work but he, at the same time, described some great talents (singuers or even guitarists) as "una fuerzas de la naturaleza", a nature force. Some other like Gades o Morente, so rational like them, talked about 'duende', or much better about the so called and more accurate "pellizco" (pinch) as a very important issue to get.

But, for me, it is difficult to understand or describe the feelings that you could lived with people like 'El Torta' sometimes or Morente concerts in San Juan Evangelista college. Now, in the tech age, is has to be an equation because "Duende" or "Pellizco" concepts are detested by modern flamenco studious that are looking for its patterns in mathematics.

http://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCkQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Felcorreoweb.es%2F2013%2F11%2F01%2Flos-duendes-y-el-pellizco-son-topicos-daninos-para-el-flamenco%2F&ei=TNK8VM36BYquU63pgJgN&usg=AFQjCNGv335Qkx2Mi-nIdp45sGVRdPgtLQ&sig2=I16FhhbApRP2cwTPzf3Ndw&bvm=bv.83829542,d.d24

I thing something similar happens with 'swing' concept in north-american music.

The fact is that there are player with 'pellizco' and my cousin that has not