I've got a woody situation; stripes, which color? ( Multi panel back Topic )

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estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

I've got a woody situation; stripes,...

I have a choice on the cedar topped negra I'm building right now:

The back set I have is small, not wide enough, so it has to have a wide separator dart in the middle like a Bellido family guitar often does. I've made three or more like that because I like the look.
But this one can be one of the following combos:

Rosewood with Cypress center,
Cypress with rosewood center
Rosewood with rosewood center
Palo Escrito rosewood with dark rosewood center.

The Palo Escrito is more than tempting, but is it too far out? It would be like ordering Black & Tan in a bar. ( Guiness with a lighter beer under it, sometimes called a half & half)

The cypress back seems like gimmick, and too loud. A cypress center strip seems brash as well, but a dark rosewood strip on dark rosewood seems plain and undistinguished. Unless maybe it has thin binding lines on each side of the center strip, but then it gets busy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2015 19:55:27

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

Go for the Palo Escrito with dark rosewood center. The Black & Tan is good in a bar, it is good for a guitar. And it remains a negra, not a half-breed as it would be with a partial cypress back.

Bill

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2015 21:17:15

tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

Go for the Palo Escrito with dark rosewood center. The Black & Tan is good in a bar, it is good for a guitar. And it remains a negra, not a half-breed as it would be with a partial cypress back.

Bill

Agree with that.

If you had some Padauk to use a centre strip I think that could work as well.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2015 21:54:46

eccullen

Posts: 97
Joined: Aug. 14 2007

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

Hey,

Palo escrito / rosewood ...

Clark

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 7 2015 0:01:54

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

The jury has delivered the verdict.

Hey Clark!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 7 2015 0:20:34

johnguitar

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

You didn't give us much time to respond before the verdict was brought down. I think that some simple lines on a three piece is not too busy, can be very nice. Of course if you have some interesting grain then you don't need to gussy up the joints.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 7 2015 11:36:02

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

Ruling over turned on appeal!

Nice back John.

Speaking of Granada, do other makers besides your self and the Bellido's use the wider back strip as a personal trademark or just done when a wider back needs to be fabricated? I guess my question is it style or more about fabricating a wide enough back? If a wide enough back where available would any maker there use the wide dart as a matter of style?

Well here is what I did, I joined the Palo back today, and tomorrow I will join the plain rosewood back with a dark dart. Then I can see which is better, but still leaning to Black and Tan, just because I like the sound of Black and Tan Negra. I'll take a shot of it in the morning.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 7 2015 12:33:10

Tom Blackshear

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

I think John gave a good suggestion, and I don't normally do three pc. backs but on occasion I have done it to look like a normal 2 pc. build.

In other words I try and make it look like a regular 2 pc.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 7 2015 13:15:17

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

Yeah Tom I know, but my grandmother was a Texas Jew born in Dallas and the Texas thread in me makes me a very against the grain kind guy. And the Jew part makes me ....like to eat black eyes peas and cornbread.

I'm full of contradictions.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 7 2015 13:31:04

Tom Blackshear

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RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

Hilarious but don't you think it best to comply with market value?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 7 2015 14:00:33

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

....like to eat black eyes peas and cornbread.

A man after my own heart.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 7 2015 15:31:54

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

It depends how wide it's gotta be. Not too wide I might go with a flamed maple wedge. If it is wider I would go triple Indian with 0.3mm sycamore pinstripes as a point of interest.

I Think I've done a 3 piece back maybe twice on purpose and twice out of necessity.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 7 2015 20:06:05

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to SephardRick)

quote:

A man after my own heart.

One more off topic, The Texas part of the family eats black eyes peas and cornbread on new years day. If I could get some corn flower I'd make it in the pan style.

The market part is what I'm curious about. I've seen many guitars with three piece backs that were done intentionally or to make the back wider. And we know as makers it was common in older instruments. Many Torres guitars have three piece backs. There is also a stigma of sorts in flamenco against Conde' student models because they used a lots of three piece backs. I've heard guitarists down grade those three piece back instruments.

Different tones - colors of wood do not bother me one bit as long as the choices are made with some sensitivity to colors, and the pieces are not radically different or stupidly placed. Guitars that have one cypress rib and one rosewood rib and one half dark back and one half cypress back are what I would call stupid placement of color. But subtle colors playing off of each other and with the right binding can be attractive.

Why should we stick with what a "market" wants , I think we can invent the market as we want it if we do work that has taste. I have made, and every other maker here, absolutely traditional guitars time and again, so why not a bit of good invention from time to time? Maybe there is a smaller fan base for a guitar with more colors, but the guitar player who is an individual minded person might want to be distinguished by a bit of non conventional but tasteful work.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 7 2015 20:39:27

estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

I decided to go with my first instinct and use the Palo Escrito.

The top is cedar and has the 'smile' brace from Hauser's work. And the fans except the middle are parabolic. Cedar always seems to want more structure, so the parabolic fans are a bit stiffer, but just as light.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2015 11:23:01

estebanana

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RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

I think what says you meant to do it is the way the dart- spacer narrows to exactly the width of the heel cap where the back and heel cap meet. It's looks planned and not random. In this particular case I see it that way, a wider or narrower dart can work too.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2015 11:29:53

johnguitar

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Speaking of Granada, do other makers besides your self and the Bellido's use the wider back strip as a personal trademark or just done when a wider back needs to be fabricated? I guess my question is it style or more about fabricating a wide enough back? If a wide enough back where available would any maker there use the wide dart as a matter of style?

This touches on one of my favorite topics i.e. how necesity influences artisans. I think it is pretty obvious that the three piece back began as a way to take advantage of particularily dry, beautiful or good wood that was not wide enough. This can still happen as in the photo I posted but I do know one or two cases where it is done to get the effect of the "old Granada" style. On the other hand there is a group of builders here that regularly use a wide centre strip with parallel edges which seems to be an aesthetic choice (indian rosewood or cypress is always wide enough).
https://twitter.com/GdeLuthier/status/549847520697122816

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2015 20:50:35

johnguitar

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

Stephen, your question inspired me to dig up an old publication just to illustrate the Granada "dart". Enjoy the pictures, I know you love this stuff. http://www.granadaexpert.com/johnray/three-piece-backs/

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2015 20:46:43

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

John,

Thanks for that great article you wrote.
We need a three piece back popular revival movement!

For one thing it reminded me that many older Iberian guitars and even some early Ramirez etc. have Fir or hard pine necks. But the examples of the those tasteful triangle dart set ups are really nice.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2015 0:37:51

milanlondons

Posts: 34
Joined: Jan. 9 2015

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

Hi, this is my Manuel Bellido palo escrito/rosewood just for your reference... Best.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2015 6:46:14

milanlondons

Posts: 34
Joined: Jan. 9 2015

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

Hi, this is my Manuel Bellido palo escrito/rosewood for you reference (sorry, the previous message did not have any attachments...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2015 6:48:27

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

Thanks for that. What are the ribs?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2015 10:34:52

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

I am always happy to accept a three piece back. I get the feeling that it might save a few trees! If I had the choice I would prefer the same wood to be used for each piece but in the grand scheme of things there are many factors that are more important.

Some years ago I had the opportunity to play a fabulous Marcelino Lopez Nieto guitar with a three piece spruce front – looked like three pieces of equal width joined together. I am now wondering if the joins needed reinforcing in any way.

Manuel Bellido has made all kinds of three piece back combinations and designs. Back in the 1970s he made some just like the one that John posted. Here is my 1990 blanca.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2015 18:02:04

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I have a choice on the cedar topped negra I'm building right now:

The back set I have is small, not wide enough, so it has to have a wide separator dart in the middle like a Bellido family guitar often does. I've made three or more like that because I like the look.
But this one can be one of the following combos:

Rosewood with Cypress center,
Cypress with rosewood center
Rosewood with rosewood center
Palo Escrito rosewood with dark rosewood center.

The Palo Escrito is more than tempting, but is it too far out? It would be like ordering Black & Tan in a bar. ( Guiness with a lighter beer under it, sometimes called a half & half)

The cypress back seems like gimmick, and too loud. A cypress center strip seems brash as well, but a dark rosewood strip on dark rosewood seems plain and undistinguished. Unless maybe it has thin binding lines on each side of the center strip, but then it gets busy.

jeez reminds me of this old commercial (took me forever to find

)

http://youtu.be/yiEll1hMfJw

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2015 21:35:45

estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

What Steve Martin orders:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2015 23:40:19

estebanana

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RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

Here the back is on the guitar, binding ready to be scraped down. Accompanied by an interloping viola. I think it came off pretty well, we'll have to see the whole thing later with finish.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 16 2015 0:58:34

Sr. Martins

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RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

I don't know what the correct adjective would be but that back wood looks very "woody", I like that wild/raw imperfect appeal with the little knots or whatever that is. Nice.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 16 2015 1:38:41

estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

Thanks! The little dots are flecks of darker color, they look like punctuation marks and I think that is why they call this wood palo escrito, because it looks written on.

This guitar is almost finished, I'll show in a few days. It was the right thing to do to use the palo escrito back, it's very distinctive and it's attractive in an unorthodox kind of way.

The guitar is large however, a 660 scale with a deep body- 4" at the heel. As I was making t I was thinking a lot about the early 70's negras that Paco played and the deep bodied classical conversions to flamenco that Manolo Sanlucar plays. And about the earlier guitars that flamencos played which were often deep bodied and made of rosewood. Speaking of Granada, I've seen pictures from the 1940's taken in Granada of flamencos playing rosewood guitars that look like what we call classicals today.

Anyway I hope to see more three piece backs in this thread and more talk about guitars with multi panel construction.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2015 14:01:14

johnguitar

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RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

http://www.google.es/imgres?imgurl=http://www.kentguitarclassics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Eichinger-2009-294-Back-359x500.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.kentguitarclassics.com/classical-guitars/rolf-eichinger/rolf-eichinger-2009-spruce&h=500&w=359&tbnid=1ldsUpEatvWc6M:&zoom=1&docid=PelUxPZaoYw_-M&ei=0oe9VP2ZHYP_UsyugZAD&tbm=isch&client=firefox-a&ved=0CCEQMygAMAA My teacher Rolf Eichinger often made three or four-piece backs and made no apologies about it. I would hate to see this thread go off course but he always saw defects in the wood in the same light. Wormholes and oxidization were an excuse to play with symmetry (or asymmetry as the case may be).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2015 22:12:58

estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

I've heard of Rolf, Anders has talked about him too. I like that kind of role model.

Since I spent some time in my studies with a very fine lute maker multi panel backs are just normal to me. I think more and more it's important follow your own instincts and loves about how to build and not be tied to a "market" format. I would not want to listen to too much guitar playing that follows the popular market, I prefer players who are individuals, and so it goes with guitar making. It's kind of a dance between understanding the " old masters" and putting together your own style form what you learn looking at the great oldies.

I've even thought that building a few that quote baroque guitars in terms of multi staved backs and ribs might be fun. How about a back made of ten rosewood staves with three line purfling spacers? Or Strads guitars made to a modern plantilla shape?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2015 0:26:47

Wayne Brown

Posts: 124
Joined: Oct. 22 2012
From: Huntersville, North Carolina, USA

RE: I've got a woody situation; stri... (in reply to estebanana)

Three piece backs are becoming the norm for me now. I have a log of black walnut that is not wide enough for two piece backs.
Here is an OM guitar I have finished recently.